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13rebel
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Re: Jennings Governor 'win percent' rate question...

Postby 13rebel » Sun Oct 06, 2019 12:00 am

Malc, do you remember when you kindly helped fix my Roma with the coin not retaining in the gate and 'round about that time I had calculated the percentage payout to be 49.6%? You agreed that the problem lay with the wins with 'any' at the end. It's easy to kind of 'double up' with combinations eg on the Roma there are awards for plum/bell/bell, plum/bell/plum, plum/bell/orange, also plum/bell/any. When calculating the plum/bell/any, it must be done without including the other three combinations mentioned as these have already been accounted for. Thus it works out even more measly. :shock:

chris rideout
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Re: Jennings Governor 'win percent' rate question...

Postby chris rideout » Tue Oct 08, 2019 12:51 pm

There was just a solitary jackpot on most of the Jennings machines. The most frequent wins were:

Cherry Cherry Any (pays 5)
Cherry Bar Any (pays 5)
Bar Bar Any (pays 5)
Bar Cherry Any (pays 5)
Cherry Any Any (pays 3)
Bar Any Any (pays 3)

Now look at the Oranges/Plums/Bells... Mean! I think the overall payout was 83 per cent but I worked that out so many years ago that I remember very little.

13rebel
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Re: Jennings Governor 'win percent' rate question...

Postby 13rebel » Tue Oct 08, 2019 6:55 pm

Bit tricky to work out the percentage on a machine without a declared jackpot amount. Basically it's a case of coins out as per the award card possible combinations [taking care not to duplicate when there is 'any' in the win line] divided by the total number of possible combinations then multiplied by 100. In the case of the Roma it is [ 496 divided by 1000] x 100=49.6%. Another bandit might be [6000 divided by 8000] x 100 giving 75%. Whilst this is not a fixed percentage,over the course of inserting the same number of coins as the possible total combinations it should pretty close.[unless an operator has done some skulduggery] 83% sounds very generous.

quadibloc
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Re: Jennings Governor 'win percent' rate question...

Postby quadibloc » Wed Jan 15, 2020 6:35 am

coppinpr wrote:
Sat Oct 05, 2019 1:27 pm
I don't think there ever was a fixed percentage payout in the pre electric days I don't see how that is possible, on a machine with random stops and a fixed order of symbols. You can have a probability of winning but not a fixed percentage, not for certain.
You are quite correct. However, the amount won, relative to the amount paid, based on the probability of winning each of the different prizes is what is used to determine the most probable average win percentage. The percentage payout just means the expected payout based on the odds, with it understood that players might get more or less if they're lucky or unlucky.

Even today, with computerized electronic slot machines, they're designed simply to have a specified probability of winning for each pull, not to keep track of previous spins to stay close to the intended payout. This is done both to meet legal requirements and to avoid introducing the possibility of players improving their chances by keeping track of what a machine had been doing.
13rebel wrote:
Tue Oct 08, 2019 6:55 pm
Bit tricky to work out the percentage on a machine without a declared jackpot amount.
That's quite true. A Gold Award machine, with a Gold Award that's always 50 coins, and no jackpot, is straightforward.

One can still work out a percentage, though, by either excluding the jackpot, or assuming an arbitrary amount, as long as you note what you've done, and that the percentage is therefore an estimate.

If you know how the jackpot works on the machine, however, then you can calculate an exact percentage. For example, a machine might take every tenth coin played and put it in the jackpot. In that case, one would just subtract 10% from the machine's percentage, since an additional 10% of everything played goes back to the player (ignoring cases where the jackpot chamber overflows).

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coppinpr
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Re: Jennings Governor 'win percent' rate question...

Postby coppinpr » Wed Jan 15, 2020 9:32 am

coppinpr wrote:
Sat Oct 05, 2019 1:27 pm
For example, a machine might take every tenth coin played and put it in the jackpot. In that case, one would just subtract 10% from the machine's percentage
I don't think that is quite right. Any coin going into the jackpot is "still in play" in the same way a coin dropping into the coin payout tube would be. If you deduct the % going into the JP, you would need to deduct every coin that refilled the tube as well, unless you consider all coins in payout areas are in fact already "in the cash box", which is valid because the coin tube and jackpot were filled from the "cash box" when the machine started in use and eventually when the machine is taken out of service those coins do in fact go back into the "cash box". :lol:

On most of the machines we deal with (Mills, Jennings etc.) it's even easier to take the jackpot into account because the jackpot takes every coin after the jackpot empties until it overflows. If (as was factory supplied) there is a reserve jackpot that becomes the point of account as the actual jackpot never contains more than the reserve dumps into it, so if you count the max number of coins the reserve can hold, and use that in the calculations, that would give you the max percentage. The problem would be how often the jackpot empties. If the jackpot never empties before the reserve is overflowing, then the number of coins in the JP is a fixed number (the number of coins the reserve can hold)... I think. !!IDEA!!

quadibloc
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Re: Jennings Governor 'win percent' rate question...

Postby quadibloc » Wed Jan 15, 2020 12:46 pm

Obviously, if the jackpot took every coin, and never overflowed, all the coins played would eventually come back to the player. So in the case of the jackpot taking every coin until it is full, you must take overflows into account.

One way to do it is, as you mentioned, to use the capacity of the jackpot, on the assumption that it is usually full. When a machine has a reserve jackpot, that is not too unrealistic; and, even if it doesn't, obviously the jackpot is expected to fill quickly so that the machine will make a profit for its operator.

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coppinpr
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Re: Jennings Governor 'win percent' rate question...

Postby coppinpr » Wed Jan 15, 2020 1:48 pm

Just to make it even more random, Mills jackpots were adjustable as to the number of coins they hold, giving the operator another way to increase the profits. :!?!:

chris rideout
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Re: Jennings Governor 'win percent' rate question...

Postby chris rideout » Fri Jan 17, 2020 4:06 pm

coppinpr wrote:
Wed Jan 15, 2020 1:48 pm
Just to make it even more random, Mills jackpots were adjustable as to the number of coins they hold, giving the operator another way to increase the profits. :!?!:
Likewise the Sega jackpots. The adjustment was made by screwing in or out the back plate but you had to take the jackpot out to do it!


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