Single Machine Permit - what it looks like

[marktol]

Well,

After having had my listing pulled twice yesterday and again overnight, I spoke to ebay on the phone this morning and have ended up emailing them a copy of my permit, so let's see what happens next.

Did you have to do that Paul?

[raj]

After having had my listing pulled twice yesterday and again overnight

Oh well, so much for the 'post on a week end' theory.

[coppinpr]

No, my machine went through without any problems at all.

[marktol]

Grrr, I think that means mine must have been reported. I suspect they have a system where if a machine is reported for a policy breach its almost 'automatically' removed so as to streamline the process at their end and show their compliance.

The person I spoke to on the phone said there is a Gambling Commission team. She also said that all of the spot checks are random - I said I should buy a lottery ticket if that's the case I must have the best luck in the world to keep getting randomly selected....

[jonesthegarage]

After having had my listing pulled twice yesterday and again overnight

Aah, I remember the days when I used to get pulled twice and again overnight, but I never called it "my listing".

[marktol]

Well,

Thankfully, I've now managed to sell the machine and remove the listing myself, this time before ebay even came back to me or, more to the point, before they could remove it again themselves!

[badpenny]

Success! ........ hard work ..... but success all the same.

[youngerap]

Thankfully, I've now managed to sell the machine and remove the listing myself, this time before ebay even came back to me or, more to the point, before they could remove it again themselves!

Well done Mark. Another week and I would have had to buy it, just to add to my personal 'Tolcher Collection'!

But, does that mean you 'invested' in a one-time license yet it made no difference? You were still treated by eBay as if the license did not exist? I hope your price factored in the cost of said license, else it seems to me to have been a waste of both time and money (do please correct me if I am wrong).

Dreading the day when I might want to move any of my machines on. I don't believe I have the patience for this eBay farce.

[marktol]

eBay still haven't replied to my original email nor have they replied to my email with a copy of the permit attached. I did however this morning have another email from them saying that have removed my listing - funny as it was already gone they clearly don't want any trace!

Funny how I'm currently watching about 4 other machines at the moment that haven't been removed yet.

As far as I'm concerned, I haven't used the permit yet, so I will look to do so next time I try and sell a machine. I've not decided if I'm going to keep the Melon Front I won by accident at the Elephant House auction yet - will see what it's like when it arrives, but trying to sell that is going to be a nightmare through eBay if it's anything like this experience...

So far though, the permit has only made the situation more frustrating, in that I'm allowed to list and sell, yet they still keep removing it!

[andydotp]

Same here.
Listed my 1928/'50s Mills/Bolland Screen Stars Sunday night and it was removed by brekkie Monday morning. Appears I was in breach of their "electronic" gambling machine policy in Australia..
Shall attempt to list a few cabinets only....
andydotp.

[badpenny]

.......... I've not decided if I'm going to keep the Melon Front. I won by accident at the Elephant House auction.....

How did you manage to do that Mark? Is it something we can laugh at?

Jermy

[marktol]

Almost certainly,

I had initially agreed a bid but then had some more questions based on some feedback from some people who saw it last time. We then said we would have a chat once the machine arrived, so I assumed the bid was on hold until we confirmed.

I then didn't hear from Steve until late Sat night, saying call in the morning, but didn't read it in time. So I thought, 'oh well, not to worry', especially as I had already won TreeFrog's machine in the Auction, so you can imagine the look of surprise on my face when I got the congratulatory email on Monday afternoon.

I'm sure there is a lesson to be learnt there, but I can't think what it is. Waiting for it to be delivered and I will decide if I'm going to change the repo parts for originals and keep it, or sell it on!

[classicgambler]

I've skipped all the posts here but I know what it's about but, anyway, do all the machines from 1970s down, such as the allwins the Brencos, BMC, Bryans and loads of others - do they all need a licence from the big GC, or are they all exempt from it?

[raj]

Here is the flow chart from the GC. Basically the age of the machine is of no relevance, nor is the type of coinage.
The key to the requirement is: is it skill or chance?
If skill, no prize greater than the cost of playing the game can be 'won'. Replays don't count as a 'win'.
If a coin is required to play a game of chance, then a permit is required. Only two permits per year per household will be issued @£25 each and require the make, name & serial number (if there is one) of the machine in question.
It could be argued that Allwins are skill games, but Clocks are not, unless the 'skill stop' button is considered to override the random chance of the machine.
Bandits are clearly chance games, disconnecting parts will not make any difference to the need for a permit. Not working, or spares only will get pulled, unless it is clear that it is a pile of scrap parts.

[coppinpr]

We have had this chart on the forum before and if you use it as it says, then all slot machines from the present day back to the first one require a permit or licence, unless they payout one coin the same as the cost of the game or one replay. Even then many of those would still not be exempt.

[pennymachines]

From the first 'NO' box on the chart, it's apparent they're determined not to be held to any hard and fast definition. If they say it's a gaming machine, it is, but we can only guess. However, they state specifically that single coin return, replay and no prize are exempt:

You do not need any kind of licence to run gaming machines that do not offer a prize at all, or do not offer a prize worth more than the price you pay to play the machine.

Circumstances in which you do not need a gaming machine (fruit machine, slot machine) operating licence

It could be argued that Allwins are skill games, but Clocks are not, unless the 'skill stop' button is considered to override the random chance of the machine.

I'm afraid, as far as the Commission is concerned, they both fall within the licensable category. This is clear from the notes on Questions 3 and 4, accompanying the flowchart:

Question 3: Does the game contain an element of chance as well as an element of skill?
Subject to question 4, a game in which the outcome or result can be influenced to any appreciable extent by chance is, in the Commission’s view, a game of chance for the purposes of the Act.
It follows that the machine on which the game is played is a gaming machine.
It does not matter for these purposes whether the element of chance / luck predominates over the element of skill. Nor does it matter whether the element of chance can be eliminated by superlative skill.
An example of a game which contains both an element of chance and an element of skill is Poker.

Question 4: Is the element of chance involved in the game so small that it should be disregarded?
The Commission recognises, however, that there comes a point where the element of chance is so small that it should be disregarded.
An example of a game where the element of chance should be disregarded is Chess, where the element of chance introduced by determining who is to play as white and black is so small as to be likely to be considered irrelevant.

http://www.gamblingcommission.gov.uk/PD ... 202010.pdf

Some years ago, we debated whether an allwin is a game of chance or skill. The question boiled down to whether an adept player could demonstrate a significant element of skill by consistently winning more (or losing less) than a novice player. Opinion remained divided. But, as far as the Commission is concerned, the question is irrelevant, because, "It does not matter for these purposes whether the element of chance / luck predominates over the element of skill. Nor does it matter whether the element of chance can be eliminated by superlative skill".

Not working, or spares only, will get pulled, unless it is clear that it is a pile of scrap parts.

This may be ebay's current policy, but again, the Commission's stance is that you need a permit or licence to "supply... part of a gaming machine".
Do I need a licence - gaming machines (fruit machines, slot machines)?

[badpenny]

In an attempt to muddy the waters further by trying to clarify things .............

Those new to this minefield may not understand that a permit to operate a machine to the general public is not the same thing as a permit to sell a machine.

Also don't fall for the obvious conclusion that eBay's rules are the same as The GC. They aren't.

Finally The GC do not make the rules, they enforce them, and even they often don't know what they're talking about and contradict their own printed material.

Happy days are here again ...... ta ra ra ra ra

[jonesthegarage]

I'm no Philadelphia lawyer but if you look at this current Government Review

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/s ... review.pdf

it quotes maximum stakes for the various category machines as being 10p, 30p. £1 etc, surely if this definition is correct then 1d, 3d, 6d and my much beloved 10pf cannot be "within" any category. Am I stating the bleedin' obvious?

[pennymachines]

The issue of machine categories is only relevant to the licensed operating of machines and has no bearing on licensed selling. For supplying gaming machines, one licence covers all.

Adding mystification to BP's clarification:

The licence relevant to us is the non-remote gaming machine technical – supplier operating licence.
"This licence allows you to adapt, install, maintain, repair and supply all categories of gaming machine or part of a gaming machine".

You need the non-remote gaming machine technical – full operating licence if you also intend to manufacture gaming machines.

Arcades that operate some Category B and Category C gaming machines require the Adult Gaming Centre (AGC) operating licence or the Family Entertainment Centre (FEC) operating licence.

[coppinpr]

we appear to have gone full circle with this thread its been going so long new people have joined and missed the highlights (see how the long winter evenings fly by in MY house) may I direct the new followers of this may pole like thread back to the top where there is a picture of the famious permit