Mayfield Electronic Dice & Streets Spot Luck identified

[operator bell]

I saw one of these this morning, in the back of a warehouse covered in dust. It was a single player though. It had a pair of dice about an inch across in a wire cage on what looked like a vibrating base, with no visible means of reading them. Looking closely at the dice I saw a small hole in the middle of the spot on the '1' face - I couldn't see holes in the other faces. I opened the bottom of the cabinet and saw an electronics rack on the left that I didn't examine closely, and on the right a couple more electronic boards that were hand wired on matrix board. Considering the condition of this thing and that it was made in Chicago in the 1970s, I suspect it may be a prototype and may have been made at Clarence Schuyler's Games Inc, since that's where a lot of the other stuff in the warehouse originated. I snapped a photo with my phone but then accidentally sent it to my email at work, so I won't be able to share it until tomorrow. Hopefully the owner will let me poke around a bit more because I'd really like to know how it read the dice - and next time I'll take a proper camera.

Double or Nothing

[pennymachines]

Hey OB, ain't you gonna buy that baby?

I've been mulling the question ever since Potless posted this topic - how to read freely thrown dice. Magnets concealed in the die and reed switches below is the best I can come up with. I think such a system might allow detection of several faces but not six sides. Rippy seems to have been on the right track with the little holes. But what do they do?

[operator bell]

I don't have enough room for it. There are other more interesting things in that warehouse anyway. But I do intend to delve into the bottom of it and find out how it works.

[Potless]

Thanks for posting the pic and information - it sounds as though that machine works on the same principle as the big one we remember - if you do have time to take a look inside, we would love to know what you find!

[Potless]

I am reviving this old thread in case anyone has any further information about this huge old electromechanical dice machine - I have attached a (crude) drawing of how I remember it to be (bearing in mind that I was about 10 at the time I first saw it, so it seemed enormous to me!).

To recap, it was a 1960's betting game where punters could insert their pennies to win 2p, 4p, 6p, 8p or 10p, depending on the outcome of the throw of the two huge dice, which were inside a large metal cage. The cage rotated end over end to tumble the dice, which landed on the felt-covered base of the cage where the spots were read by the machine to determine payouts (as yet, nobody can figure out how the dice were read, because the machine was made long before computers were used in arcade machines, so it must have relied upon some simple electronic or mechanical system).

If anyone has any pics, a maker's name, or the name of the machine itself, that would be fantastic (and bring to an end years of fruitless searching on the internet for information).

[rippyspennyarcade]

Hi Potless, I was about 13 when I first saw this dice machine. Can I just say that your drawing of the machine is pretty much just as the machine looked. I can't remember the name of the machine either, but it was a very eye-catching, huge slot machine that really stood out in the arcade

[Potless]

Good to know that others remember seeing it - it's amazing though, that such a large and impressive piece of machinery remains such a mystery! As I said previously, it had the look of a unit that might have been originally made for a Vegas venue - but strangely, even research on slot machine database sites has not determined its origins....

[pennymachines]

I admire your persistence Potless. Who knows, maybe someone will come up with something... I think the lack of any online record rules out your suggestion that it might have been a Bally.

When Rippy mentioned the holes in the dice, it occurred to me that it might be measuring air pressure to detect their positions. This sounds a bit far-fetched, but I recall a machine in Joe Fletcher's arcade in Rednal which could detect the landing position of coins by sucking air through holes underneath the table. Obviously for it to work, the holes would have to go right through from the six to the one dot face. In this case ones and sixes would both have to be winners, as there's no way to distinguish between them.

However, your drawing pretty conclusively rules out any air suction trickery. In fact the distance between the free thrown dice and the main body of the machine seems to rule out just about any possible mechanism. As several members have anecdotal memories of the game, I have to conclude that it really did exist and either "worked by magic" or was a spin off from some advanced 1960s secret research project. The absence of any printed record, patent or photo suggests the technology is now suppressed.

1. Can anyone remember how the game was played? What outcomes were you betting on?
2. Was the dice shaker transparent from top to bottom?

[badpenny]

I recall it but not with the amount of detail that others do. I was never really fascinated by the big arcade machines, I probably suspected a man hiding inside.
Puzzling over how it was achieved, I warm towards your own theory of reed switches affected by magnets.
Alternatively it wouldn't be impossible to have different power magnets in each face moving rheostats ... different output potential could identify how the dice landed.

[Potless]

1. Can anyone remember how the game was played? What outcomes were you betting on?
2. Was the dice shaker transparent from top to bottom?

I seem to remember that the outcomes you bet on were 2 + 2, 3 + 3, 4 + 4, etc. but as always, memory may be playing tricks....

The shaker appeared to be totally transparent (a cage in fact) and the top and bottom ends were not excessively thick, so the sensing mechanism must have been extremely compact.

[pennymachines]

Players would bet on the outcome of the dice throw, e.g. double one, double two, etc. (I am not sure of the exact betting possibilities), to win anything from 2d to 12d.

I seem to remember that the outcomes you bet on were 2 + 2, 3 + 3, 4 + 4, etc.

I don't think this can be right. Suppose it paid, for example, 2d on 1 + 1, 4d on 2 + 2, 6d on 3 + 3, 8d on 4 + 4, 10d on 5 + 5 and 12d on 6 + 6... There would be no point in betting on anything but sixes as they have the same odds of coming up (assuming the dice are fair) as any other double. Besides with odds of 1/36, it wouldn't be worth betting. Unless each station had just a single slot and you were gambling on any double coming up (similar to a bandit), rather than betting on a particular double.

[Potless]

Thinking about it, that's very logical - as I said, memory is a bit sketchy on that point!
Maybe it was particular combinations of faces that were bet on? I certainly seem to remember multiple betting slots at each station.

[rippyspennyarcade]

Pennymachines is correct, you could bet on more than just doubles coming up. I watched that machine in action for quite a while on each day of my week's holiday. The top and bottom of the cage was thicker, so this must have somehow activated the payouts. It's different to Streets Spot Luck (that I mentioned earlier), as those dice did have holes in the spots, but a wiper reset the dice and only then did that machine pay out once the dice were returned to their starting point. This did NOT happen on our machine. The machine paid out and then the cage just turned again for the next game. I do remember a lot, but it's annoying me that I can't remember the machine's name!

[slotalot]

I have been fascinated by this thread from the start as I had very vague memories of playing this machine in the 1960s. I was also getting frustrated at not being able to find out more about it despite spending hours searching the internet - then I had an idea. I thought that if anyone can find or remember this machine it will be Freddy Bailey.

As some of you will already know Freddy has spent all his life living and working in the amusement trade, and at one time his family owned an arcade in Great Yarmouth near to where this machine is thought to have operated. He also has what must be the biggest collection of amusement trade papers and magazines in the world.

Anyway, to cut a long story short, I contacted Freddy and made him aware of the question, and after several emails between Freddy and me this is what he has come up with.

So on behalf of the members of the Pennymachines website I say a big thank you Freddy for taking the time to thumb your way through hundreds of pages of information to answer this question.

CLICK ON THE PHOTOS TO MAKE THEM BIGGER...

[gameswat]

Nice sleuthing there Slot!! But what a pity the article didn't go into detail about how it works?? Strange as this was a trade publication and not for the general public. So you'd think they'd want operators to know all about it to spur sales!?

[rippyspennyarcade]

That's the one! Many thanks to Slotalot and Freddy for coming up with this article / picture. I never thought a picture would surface. This brings back so many happy memories for me, and probably Potless. Thanks Again!

[Potless]

Yes yes, that has to be it! Wow - it's like rediscovering a long lost friend. Don't recall the giant die on top of the machine - maybe it was a later addition, or maybe I was too dazzled by watching the dice cage in operation to notice it!

May I add my thanks to Freddy and Slotalot for finding this for us, it is very much appreciated. It's amazing what can be produced by a forum if you keep at it....

[13rebel]

Freddy and Stuart

[Potless]

You are not going to believe this - now I know what the machine is called, and who made it, I was able to find this COMPLETE PATENT SHEET which describes everything about it, from a block diagram of operation, how the dice are read, through to the cabinet details, payouts, etc. It seems I was correct about doubles paying out, but other combinations are also winners.

But get this - each die actually contains an OSCILLATOR, which radiates a signal when the dice are are at rest, AT A DIFFERENT FREQUENCY FOR EACH FACE. The signals are picked up by a discreet aerial in the machine. Astonishingly, each die has its OWN RECHARGEABLE BATTERY, which is charged periodically by the machine! The spec. makes fascinating reading....

It was pretty advanced stuff for machines of this era - no wonder we couldn't work out exactly how the dice were read. It must have been incredibly expensive to buy too; no wonder only the larger arcades had them! Maybe they were hired?

[Potless]

Forgot to mention, the patent was found here:

http://www.directorypatent.com/GB/1180560-a.html