Treasure Cave (Elephant Gift Vender)

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paulcfc
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Elephant Machine....as i called it!

Post by paulcfc »

Topic merged - Site Admin.

Hi all
One of my abiding memories of childhood was walking from Cliftonville to Margate (on holiday from sunny Leicester) on the way to Dreamland. On the way was the highlight of the walk... The Elephant Machine! It was an elephant that went round a track and into a cave and magically came out with a box which, at that time, seemed terrific for someone of my age! Anyway, being in my 40s now and with a young son I was wondering if any of these machines were ever up for sale.

They were in a case and, from what I can remember, looked quite old then! I'd just like to get my hands on one if they still exist.
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slotalot
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Re: Elephant Machine....as i called it!

Post by slotalot »

Hi Paul, welcome to the forum :D
I think the machine you are looking for is called the Treasure Cave, made by Whales of Redcar, they do come up for sale from time to time. Here is an old photo I have found on my computer !!JUNK!!
Sorry, it's not mine. :tarah:
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miked16
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Re: Treasure Cave (Elephant Gift Vender)

Post by miked16 »

Hi all,

I recently acquired one of the Treasure Cave machines (will get some pictures taken this week) I have a few questions which I will also post in the Questions and Answer category also in case this isn't the right place to ask!

Does anyone know how the mechanics work or have photos of the inside of another working model?

Does anyone have graphics for the glass at the back, would have been 'Whales' version of a beach with galleon?

And do you know where I might get an metal old coin slot for the front? Ideally to match or go with the doors on the front:
treasurecave_doors.jpg
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Any help would be really really appreciated. I have wanted one of these ever since I can remember, and now that I have found one would love to get it working.

Michael.
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slotalot
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Re: Treasure Cave (Elephant Gift Vender)

Post by slotalot »

Hi Michael :D welcome to the site, once you post your photos I may be able to help you. Is your machine missing any bits from the mech or do you just have a pile of bits and not sure? Can I ask what part of the UK you live in? :tarah:
Please don't forget to sign our petition or like us on facebook. https://www.facebook.com/pennypetition We need your help too... lol. !!CHEERS!!
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Re: Treasure Cave (Elephant Gift Vender)

Post by miked16 »

Hi!

Thanks for the reply! I've liked the facebook page and signed the petition :D Happy to be here, have been reading as a 'guest' for a while! I'm from Shropshire in the West Midlands.

The machine seems to have all 'its bits' inside, but some are a bit rusty - I'm not knowledgeable enough to know if anything is missing but it does seem to be all together. I have taken lots of photographs today after taking the back off and posted some below, but do have lots more. I'm missing the top panel of glass from inside (with the scene on) and also the glass that goes around the very top on the outside.

Here are some pictures (those at the bottom are from before I gave it a clean);

treasure_cave_front.jpg


treasure_cave_back1.jpg


treasure_cave_back2.jpg


treasure_cave_inside1.jpg


treasure_cave_inside2.jpg


treasure_cave_inside3.jpg


treasure_cave_before_clean2.jpg


treasure_cave_before_clean1.jpg

I also need a coin slot cover for this;
treasure_cave_coinslot.jpg

I am a complete novice, so any help or pointers in the right direction will be appreciated. I don't think I will be able to repair this myself as not skilled enough but would like to get as much info as possible!

Thanks so much.

Michael.
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jimmy55
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Re: Treasure Cave (Elephant Gift Vender)

Post by jimmy55 »

Wow ....fascinating machine ...takes me right back to Great Yarmouth in the '60s! Must weigh a ton!
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Re: Treasure Cave (Elephant Gift Vender)

Post by miked16 »

It really does weigh a lot!

I think this must have been 'taken out of action' in the '60s, as it never got converted after 6d. There were still some old coins in the back and lots of prizes which were very '50s/'60s.

I remember the one I saw at a fair here in Shropshire in the 1980s when I was a child. In fact it was still in use a few years ago. I took my daughter to see it and have a go, took pictures and video but can't find them anywhere on this computer. I can remember being fascinated by it as a child and going back each year the fair came to town just to see it. I always wanted to get one of my own. And finally I did and so pleased with it, especially as it seems to be an earlier version.
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Re: Treasure Cave (Elephant Gift Vender)

Post by slotalot »

Hi Michael. :D Thanks for the photos. From what I can see, it looks as if it is complete. The method of drive for the prize carrousel is not what I would have expected to see. This normally has a Geneva stop mechanisum to turn it round, but back in the day they would use whatever they had to hand at the time that would do the job, so yours will be original.
I have attached a photo of a similar machine that I restored last year. Mine had a door at the rear; yours has a door at the side. Also the cabinet is different to the one I had.
I have attached a photo that shows what the missing top glass should look like. It is reverse painted by hand on glass with acrylic paints.
What I would do is just work your way through the machine, cleaning and looking at how the bits work. If you have any specific questions, I am sure we will be able to guide you as you go on.
Good luck with the restoration, and keep in touch. :tarah:
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Re: Treasure Cave (Elephant Gift Vender)

Post by badpenny »

Thanks S, I'd never heard of a Geneva Drive, that's really fascinating.
Internal_Geneva_wheel_ani_220px.gif
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220px-Geneva_mechanism_6spoke_animation.gif
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Jeremy !WORSHIPFULL!

PS .. oh bugger! no sooner do you find something new then it confuddles the hell out of you .......
I've just noticed that both drive wheels are turning in opposite directions yet the plates being driven are rotating identically!!!!!!
:o !PUZZLED! :!?!:
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Re: Treasure Cave (Elephant Gift Vender)

Post by slotalot »

Hi BP :cool: , this is a photo of a Geneva stop from a Whales Treasure Cave, which is a much smaller machine than Michael's and only has 4 slots instead of 5 for the prize carousel, and the Whales machine is a lot...lot... lighter than Michael's machine as well. One revolution of the elephant turns the carousel a quarter turn, which means you can load the machine with 4 x the number of prizes. Very clever stuff. :tarah:
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miked16
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Re: Treasure Cave (Elephant Gift Vender)

Post by miked16 »

Wow that looks amazing, you have done a superb job with your restoration. I'm going to have a go at the back glass panel, I've seen a few variations now. I'm also going to have a go at replacing the top glass panels that should look like this;

treasure_cave_top.JPG

(another variation on the back glass panel in this pic too!)

but the mechanics, I don't think I would know where to start and wouldn't progress very well at all. I think I may have to find someone who knows what they are doing!

I'm searching now for that coin slot panel at the front, I'm sure I have seen one on-line somewhere......

I find the whole thing fascinating, and really interested in how others have progressed. I'd like to get it electric powered, I think at the moment it is battery, but keep it to the original coinage 6ds.

Thanks again for your reply! and any other advice or examples are really appreciated! !THUMBS!
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Re: Treasure Cave (Elephant Gift Vender)

Post by miked16 »

It's really interesting to see the differences to the mechanics S. Thanks ever so much for posting that picture. How much of the original workings did you manage to keep in yours? I'm guessing most, if not all? There are some super Bakelite switches etc. inside it which I'd like to keep if possible.

It has three doors (one each side and one at the front) and a back panel that comes off with bolts. Unfortunately, I don't have the keys, but the one side door was open so from there managed to get the back panel off.

Some more pictures of the inside below;

treasure_cave_inside4.jpg


treasure_cave_inside5.jpg


treasure_cave_inside6.jpg


treasure_cave_inside7.jpg


treasure_cave_inside8.jpg

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JC
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Re: Treasure Cave (Elephant Gift Vender)

Post by JC »

Welcome to the forum Michael, and congratulations on acquiring a huge big beast of a machine (and for anyone not familiar with these machines, they really are huge heavy beasts) - most people might have started with an allwin!
Just one point re. your machine in particular, you say you need a coin slot cover - you don't. That cut-out is for an Essex type slide mech.
In general, this is all proving to be something of an education. As has been mentioned above, the most common version of this type of machine were produced by Oliver Whales - I'm pretty sure in two different sizes. Then there is the bigger type, a picture of which Stuart has posted above - I also own one of these (manufacturer unknown). These are much bigger and heavier than the standard Whales machines (I know of someone who had to remove a door in order to get the machine into his house :lol: ). However, I haven't seen your version before, which appears to be similar in size to Stuart's (and mine), although the mechanics seem to be completely different, which might suggest it was from yet another maker. By the way, I'm intrigued to know why your machine has two gift doors - is there any clue inside the machine why it requires two doors?
Here's a picture of the gift carousel from my machine, which I'm sure you'll agree is completely different to yours.

Jerry
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Re: Treasure Cave (Elephant Gift Vender)

Post by miked16 »

Hi Jerry, thanks so much for the confirmation of what is needed at the front! That's brilliant and shows why this forum is so good. So I now need to look for something similar to this picture below but takes sixpences!

coin_mechanism.JPG
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I was under the impression there were two sizes of the Whales machine too. Certainly the one I first remember seeing in the '80s, from what I remember seeing it again a few years ago, appeared much smaller (when normally as kids things appear bigger I'm presuming it must have been small!) but most of the pictures I have seen (see below) are like Stuart's. I've also seen one more in a museum a few years ago and this was a machine like the majority below.

I just presumed, in my naivety, that mine was perhaps an early Whales version of this machine and as he went on he perfected the cases and mechanisms better and they got smaller and more compact. Certainly the elephants seem to get more realistic sculpture, but the caves, the painting and things like the back painted glass panel all seems to be very similar throughout all the machines I have seen, which made me think they were all the same manufacturer. I think most of these pictures have been posted on here already, but I thought it easier to compare if they were altogether. Do you have a picture of yours?

The first picture is of mine, the next one is of one almost identical and then so on.....
treasure_cave_comparison.jpg

I think that's why I was thinking of the wrong coin slot, because even the one closest in look and size to mine had a different type, I presume now because it had been converted after decimalisation.

The gift carousel does look different, but I think I need to get a different angle picture because at the bottom it does appear to be very similar. And the construction of the actual rods that hold the boxes seems to be the same. I have a wooden circle on mine but not sure what that is for exactly (I need a better look but it isn't at home at the moment!) I will have a look today. As for the doors, again not totally sure. You can't easily get to the two bolts that allow you to remove the back (one each side) without both doors, but that seems too much effort just for that. Also I don't think the carousel will completely rotate either (unless working?) so maybe it was to fill both sides? Or maybe it was a contingency depending on which side was blocked with a wall or another machine? Am I thinking too deeply?? Probably!

If you don't mind me asking, where did you manage to find the boxes for your machine? I managed to find one original one, still with a child's watch inside, in the bottom of the machine and that is now on the back of the elephant, but would love to get some more for when I can get it working!

Thanks again for the info on the coin mechanism, I shall start hunting now!
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slotalot
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Re: Treasure Cave (Elephant Gift Vender)

Post by slotalot »

miked16 wrote:If you don't mind me asking, where did you manage to find the boxes for your machine?
Hi, If you need any boxes Jerry is the man to ask, he sells them on his Allwin website. http://www.allwinspares.co.uk/#/miscela ... 4566414724
He also published the Mechanical Memories Magazine, if you want to subscribe to it. http://www.mechanicalmemoriesmagazine.webeden.co.uk/#
Now for the good news :o From your photos I have managed to work out just how the machine works, so should be able to get you going. :oops:
The only part I can't see is the bit behind the coin mech (see photo). Any chance of some better shots of this area?
Regards Stuart.
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Re: Treasure Cave (Elephant Gift Vender)

Post by slotalot »

Ok this is how it works, I hope you can understand my ramblings !PUZZLED!

Details for main motor & drive.
A.....motor and first right angle gearbox, reduces shaft speed
B.....universal joint.
C.....clutch, this will slip if the machine gets jammed, motor will keep running.
D.....second right angle gearbox, reduces shaft speed even more.
E.....chain drive to the main shaft that moves the elephant round.
F.....slide resistor, used to adjust motor output speed.

Details for the carousel rotation.
First it is important to understand that every time the elephant makes 1 revolution of the track and delivers a prize box, the prize box carousel rotates 1 fifth of a turn.
G.... the first thing you must do is lift the carousel back into the lower bearing block and make sure it is turning freely.
H....this is the carousel locator plate; it holds the carousel steady as the box is taken from it by the elephant.
I.....is the shoot bolt that is temporarily driven home by cam J as the elephant moves round the track.
K....is the return spring for the shoot bolt; this moves the bolt back once the shoot bolt disengages with the cam J.
L.... this is the star wheel and spring loaded arm that snaps the carousel in its “approximate” position as it turns 1 fifth of a turn, ready for the shoot bolt to finally locate it.
M...this pin is attached to the underside of the rotating table that carries the elephant round.
N....this is 1 of the 5 indexing arms that moves the carousel 1 fifth of a turn each time the elephant moves round the track.
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DRIVE 1.JPG
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JC
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Re: Treasure Cave (Elephant Gift Vender)

Post by JC »

I think my question about the two 'gift doors' was misleading - I can see now that 'door' was probably not the right term. What I meant was the two flaps at the front of the machine, where the prizes are delivered.............why two? !PUZZLED!
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Re: Treasure Cave (Elephant Gift Vender)

Post by miked16 »

Stuart, can't thank you enough - this is going to help so much. Thank you for taking the time to do this, and also for the link to the boxes and the magazine.

Without wanting to take more of your time, I have tried to take some picture of the coin mechanism. It's difficult because from the back the side of it is kind of blocked, so I have taken some through the hole for the coin mech in the front. Here they are;

Through the coin mech hole in the front;
treasure_cave6.jpg


treasure_cave8.jpg

From the back;
treasure_cave11.jpg


treasure_cave12.jpg


treasure_cave13.jpg


treasure_cave10.jpg

If these are no use, I am going to try and get the front off this weekend (I think I can unscrew the metal bars which are holding it in place) and then should be able to get much better pictures.

I managed to get the carousel back onto the bearing bock and it moves freely now;
treasure_cave3.jpg


treasure_cave2.jpg


treasure_cave1.jpg

OK, one other stupid question, how do you think this would this have been powered? In the top one of the three pictures above you can see on the right two white what look like fuses and a Bakelite switch attached to the wood, the wires go to the motor but also run up into the top where there would have been bulbs lit behind the glass, then underneath they also run to the coin mechanism (see picture below of wiring underneath with Moreton-In Marsh painted on the wood - linking it to Gloucestershire?) - but I cannot see any external leads or connections? Do you think it would have been battery or would there have been a mains lead from somewhere, if so where would it lead out from?

treasure_cave_underneath.jpg

Thanks once again for all your time and help, I really appreciate it.
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Re: Treasure Cave (Elephant Gift Vender)

Post by miked16 »

JC wrote:I think my question about the two 'gift doors' was misleading - I can see now that 'door' was probably not the right term. What I meant was the two flaps at the front of the machine, where the prizes are delivered.............why two? !PUZZLED!
Sorry Jerry, after re-reading I see what you meant! The left door is to collect the prize and the right was to give the box back. This went into a cardboard box inside which collected empty boxes, and it seems like lots of cap gun paper targets (which may have been in the box with the prize?)
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Re: Treasure Cave (Elephant Gift Vender)

Post by badpenny »

What an astonishing flood of knowledge?

Do I see a mercury switch?
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