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miked16
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Re: Treasure Cave (Elephant Gift Vender)

Postby miked16 » Wed Jan 02, 2013 10:45 pm

Wow that looks amazing, you have done a superb job with your restoration. I'm going to have a go at the back glass panel, I've seen a few variations now. I'm also going to have a go at replacing the top glass panels that should look like this;
treasure_cave_top.JPG
(another variation on the back glass panel in this pic too!)

but the mechanics, I don't think I would know where to start and wouldn't progress very well at all. I think I may have to find someone who knows what they are doing!

I'm searching now for that coin slot panel at the front, I'm sure I have seen one on-line somewhere......

I find the whole thing fascinating, and really interested in how others have progressed. I'd like to get it electric powered, I think at the moment it is battery, but keep it to the original coinage 6ds.

Thanks again for your reply! and any other advice or examples are really appreciated! !THUMBS!

miked16
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Re: Treasure Cave (Elephant Gift Vender)

Postby miked16 » Wed Jan 02, 2013 11:22 pm

It's really interesting to see the differences to the mechanics S. Thanks ever so much for posting that picture. How much of the original workings did you manage to keep in yours? I'm guessing most, if not all? There are some super Bakelite switches etc. inside it which I'd like to keep if possible.

It has three doors (one each side and one at the front) and a back panel that comes off with bolts. Unfortunately, I don't have the keys, but the one side door was open so from there managed to get the back panel off.

Some more pictures of the inside below;
treasure_cave_inside4.jpg
treasure_cave_inside5.jpg
treasure_cave_inside6.jpg
treasure_cave_inside7.jpg
treasure_cave_inside8.jpg

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JC
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Re: Treasure Cave (Elephant Gift Vender)

Postby JC » Thu Jan 03, 2013 12:46 am

Welcome to the forum Michael, and congratulations on acquiring a huge big beast of a machine (and for anyone not familiar with these machines, they really are huge heavy beasts) - most people might have started with an allwin!
Just one point re. your machine in particular, you say you need a coin slot cover - you don't. That cut-out is for an Essex type slide mech.
In general, this is all proving to be something of an education. As has been mentioned above, the most common version of this type of machine were produced by Oliver Whales - I'm pretty sure in two different sizes. Then there is the bigger type, a picture of which Stuart has posted above - I also own one of these (manufacturer unknown). These are much bigger and heavier than the standard Whales machines (I know of someone who had to remove a door in order to get the machine into his house :lol: ). However, I haven't seen your version before, which appears to be similar in size to Stuart's (and mine), although the mechanics seem to be completely different, which might suggest it was from yet another maker. By the way, I'm intrigued to know why your machine has two gift doors - is there any clue inside the machine why it requires two doors?
Here's a picture of the gift carousel from my machine, which I'm sure you'll agree is completely different to yours.

Jerry
Elephant carousel.jpg

miked16
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Re: Treasure Cave (Elephant Gift Vender)

Postby miked16 » Thu Jan 03, 2013 10:22 am

Hi Jerry, thanks so much for the confirmation of what is needed at the front! That's brilliant and shows why this is forum is so good. So I now need to look for something similar to this picture below but takes sixpences!
coin_mechanism.JPG
coin_mechanism.JPG (13.74 KiB) Viewed 3116 times
I was under the impression there was two sizes of the Whales machine too, certainly the one I first remember seeing in the '80s, from what I remember seeing it again a few years ago, appeared much smaller (when normally as kids things appear bigger I'm presuming it must have been small!) but most of the pictures I have seen (see below) are like Stuart's. I've also seen one more in a museum a few years ago and this was a machine like the majority below.

I just presumed, in my naivety, that mine was perhaps an early Whales version of this machine and as he went on he perfected the cases and mechanisms better and they got smaller and more compact. Certainly the elephants seem to get more realistic sculpture, but the caves, the painting and things like the back painted glass panel all seems to be very similar throughout all the machines I have seen, which made me think they were all the same manufacturer. I think most of these pictures have been posted on here already, but I thought it easier to compare if they were altogether. Do you have a picture of yours?

The first picture is of mine, the next one is of one almost identical and then so on.....
treasure_cave_comparison.jpg
I think that's why I was thinking of the wrong coin slot, because even the one closest in look and size to mine had a different type, I presume now because it had been converted after decimalisation.

The gift carousel does look different, but I think I need to get a different angle picture because at the bottom it does appear to be very similar. And the construction of the actual rods that hold the boxes seems to be the same. I have a wooden circle on mine but not sure what that is for exactly (I need a better look but it isn't at home at the moment!) I will have a look today. As for the doors, again not totally sure. You can't easily get to the two bolts that allow you to remove the back (one each side) without both doors, but that seems too much effort just for that. Also I don't think the carousel will completely rotate either (unless working?) so maybe it was to fill both sides? Or maybe it was a contingency depending on which side was blocked with a wall or another machine? Am I thinking too deeply?? Probably!

If you don't mind me asking, where did you manage to find the boxes for your machine? I managed to find one original one, still with a child's watch inside, in the bottom of the machine and that is now on the back of the elephant, but would love to get some more for when I can get it working!

Thanks again for the info on the coin mechanism, I shall start hunting now!

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slotalot
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Re: Treasure Cave (Elephant Gift Vender)

Postby slotalot » Thu Jan 03, 2013 10:35 am

miked16 wrote:If you don't mind me asking, where did you manage to find the boxes for your machine?
Hi, If you need any boxes Jerry is the man to ask, he sells them on his Allwin website. [xurl]http://www.allwinspares.co.uk/#/miscela ... 4566414724[/xurl]
He also published the Mechanical Memories Magazine, if you want to subscribe to it. [xurl]http://www.mechanicalmemoriesmagazine.webeden.co.uk/#[/xurl]
Now for the good news :o From your photos I have managed to workout just how the machine works, so should be able to get you going :oops:
The only part I can't see is the bit behind the coin mech (see photo). Any chance of some better shots of this area?
Regards Stuart.
coin mech.JPG

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slotalot
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Re: Treasure Cave (Elephant Gift Vender)

Postby slotalot » Thu Jan 03, 2013 12:53 pm

Ok this is how it works, I hope you can understand my ramblings !PUZZLED!

Details for main motor & drive.
A.....motor and first right angle gearbox, reduces shaft speed
B.....universal joint.
C.....clutch, this will slip if the machine gets jammed, motor will keep running.
D.....second right angle gearbox, reduces shaft speed even more.
E.....chain drive to the main shaft that moves the elephant round.
F.....slide resistor, used to adjust motor output speed.

Details for the carousel rotation.
First it is important to understand that every time the elephant makes 1 revolution of the track and delivers a prize box, the prize box carousel rotates 1 fifth of a turn.
G.... the first thing you must do is lift the carousel back into the lower bearing block and make sure it is turning freely.
H....this is the carousel locator plate; it holds the carousel steady as the box is taken from it by the elephant.
I.....is the shoot bolt that is temporarily driven home by cam J as the elephant moves round the track.
K....is the return spring for the shoot bolt; this moves the bolt back once the shoot bolt disengages with the cam J.
L.... this is the star wheel and spring loaded arm that snaps the carousel in its “approximate” position as it turns 1 fifth of a turn, ready for the shoot bolt to finally locate it.
M...this pin is attached to the underside of the rotating table that carries the elephant round.
N....this is 1 of the 5 indexing arms that moves the carousel 1 fifth of a turn each time the elephant moves round the track.
drive3.JPG
drive2.JPG
DRIVE.JPG
DRIVE 1.JPG

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JC
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Re: Treasure Cave (Elephant Gift Vender)

Postby JC » Thu Jan 03, 2013 2:13 pm

I think my question about the two 'gift doors' was misleading - I can see now that 'door' was probably not the right term. What I meant was the two flaps at the front of the machine, where the prizes are delivered.............why two? !PUZZLED!

miked16
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Re: Treasure Cave (Elephant Gift Vender)

Postby miked16 » Thu Jan 03, 2013 3:29 pm

Stuart, can't thank you enough - this is going to help so much. Thank you for taking the time to do this, and also for the link to the boxes and the magazine.

Without wanting to take more of your time, I have tried to take some picture of the coin mechanism. It's difficult because from the back the side of it is kind of blocked, so I have taken some through the hole for the coin mech in the front. Here they are;

Through the coin mech hole in the front;
treasure_cave6.jpg
treasure_cave8.jpg
From the back;
treasure_cave11.jpg
treasure_cave12.jpg
treasure_cave13.jpg
treasure_cave10.jpg
If these are no use, I am going to try and get the front off this weekend (I think I can unscrew the metal bars which are holding it in place) and then should be able to get much better pictures.

I managed to get the carousel back onto the bearing bock and it moves freely now;
treasure_cave3.jpg
treasure_cave2.jpg
treasure_cave1.jpg
OK, one other stupid question, how do you think this would this have been powered? In the top one of the three pictures above you can see on the right two white what look like fuses and a Bakelite switch attached to the wood, the wires go to the motor but also run up into the top where there would have been bulbs lit behind the glass, then underneath they also run to the coin mechanism (see picture below of wiring underneath with Moreton-In Marsh painted on the wood - linking it to Gloucestershire?) - but I cannot see any external leads or connections? Do you think it would have been battery or would there have been a mains lead from somewhere, if so where would it lead out from?
treasure_cave_underneath.jpg
Thanks once again for all your time and help, I really appreciate it.

miked16
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Re: Treasure Cave (Elephant Gift Vender)

Postby miked16 » Thu Jan 03, 2013 3:33 pm

JC wrote:I think my question about the two 'gift doors' was misleading - I can see now that 'door' was probably not the right term. What I meant was the two flaps at the front of the machine, where the prizes are delivered.............why two? !PUZZLED!
Sorry Jerry, after re-reading I see what you meant! The left door is to collect the prize and the right was to give the box back. This went into a cardboard box inside which collected empty boxes, and it seems like lots of cap gun paper targets (which may have been in the box with the prize?)

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badpenny
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Re: Treasure Cave (Elephant Gift Vender)

Postby badpenny » Thu Jan 03, 2013 3:42 pm

What an astonishing flood of knowledge?

Do I see a mercury switch?


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