Solenoid connectivity
- radiochrissie
- Posts: 212
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- Location: The Iron Men
Re: Solenoid connectivity
Gameswat is spot on. The reason you're blowing fuses is because the coil/coils have got shorted turns due to overheating. The fact you have different rated fuses in the live and neutral means someone has put the wrong fuses in. They should both be the same rating.
I would suggest powering up each coil separately with an inline current meter (not voltage) to find the culprit. Do you have a circuit diagram for this?
I would suggest powering up each coil separately with an inline current meter (not voltage) to find the culprit. Do you have a circuit diagram for this?
Re: Solenoid connectivity
Well as suggested by linginthepast, I decided to have a go rewinding the coil and ordered some 29awg coated wire and started the laborious task in counting coils and measuring the length of the existing wire. While doing so found a few breaks early on, probable cause of the issue and the wiring coating was very brittle and disintegrating.
While awaiting the new wire I went through piles of old spares I have, old reduction motors etc and found a few were similar size and observed 240v on the plastic spool. Checked continuity on one and took apart, tried in my machine, it only works......it turns out I have loads of spare coils.... So another working machine
No idea what all these reduction motors are for I have, there are boxes of them...
By the way on the fuse front, I bought loads of different sizes of slow and fast burn and started with 1amp fast burn, which work fine, so reckon these would be safest.
While awaiting the new wire I went through piles of old spares I have, old reduction motors etc and found a few were similar size and observed 240v on the plastic spool. Checked continuity on one and took apart, tried in my machine, it only works......it turns out I have loads of spare coils.... So another working machine
No idea what all these reduction motors are for I have, there are boxes of them...
By the way on the fuse front, I bought loads of different sizes of slow and fast burn and started with 1amp fast burn, which work fine, so reckon these would be safest.
- badpenny
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Re: Solenoid connectivity
I think your geared motors are German, NSM, Wall machines like Rotomat or those roulette ones that spin a large ball bearing in a vertical plane.
Re: Solenoid connectivity
Could have been, but most are British like Carters from Romford which is what I used, Mycalex from Cirencester and Brevel.....
Also JC was absolutely right about slow burn fuses being more appropriate, as blown two fast burn 1amp fuses after a few goes. With slow burn 1amp in now, no problems after many runs
Also JC was absolutely right about slow burn fuses being more appropriate, as blown two fast burn 1amp fuses after a few goes. With slow burn 1amp in now, no problems after many runs
Re: Solenoid connectivity
Ok, now onto the Jamieson’s machines and partially got an Electrodart working bar a few bulbs and a payout issue. Went through the wonderful guides in the resources as I never realised the numbers move one place forward after a win, I thought I was going mad. Anyway bell rings on a winner and I hear a slight noise from possibly the solenoid, but no movement. Looking at it, the thing looked burnt out will lumps of coating crumbling off and I tested continuity which was dead, so assumed this had failed.
So was going to take one from another machine as I am trying to make 3 or 4 good machines out of 5..... but I tested that one and again no continuity, tried another two and the same. I had thought there should be continuity on all coils and cannot believe I have 4 failed units. Resistance is around 0.13ohm and read somewhere this should be below 0.3. Also the continuity setting instead of a beep I see a reading around 170 whatever that means.
Electrically inept.....Help
Black one is the one I thought had failed and the other a spare...
So was going to take one from another machine as I am trying to make 3 or 4 good machines out of 5..... but I tested that one and again no continuity, tried another two and the same. I had thought there should be continuity on all coils and cannot believe I have 4 failed units. Resistance is around 0.13ohm and read somewhere this should be below 0.3. Also the continuity setting instead of a beep I see a reading around 170 whatever that means.
Electrically inept.....Help
Black one is the one I thought had failed and the other a spare...
Re: Solenoid connectivity
I'd be delighted to follow your progress on the Jamieson's machines. I got my BINGOLA working using the resources section hereon; prior to this, I was under the impression that it was somehow random!
The later types (with the rotary selector made of BA size bolts) are much simpler, you can work them out without GPO training. My next one will be a ROTOLITE, so I'll be watching carefully!
The later types (with the rotary selector made of BA size bolts) are much simpler, you can work them out without GPO training. My next one will be a ROTOLITE, so I'll be watching carefully!
Re: Solenoid connectivity
Tom, are you sure you should be doing this?I see a reading around 170 whatever that means.
I assume, depending on what range you have your meter set on, that's 170 ohms. At 240v, that's about 1.4 amps, so I might expect a slightly higher resistance.
Where did you get 0.3 from? That's more or less a dead short - at 240v, the coil would draw 800 amps, which is very nearly 200kw!
Re: Solenoid connectivity
Mr Frog, I would guess that much of your coil breakage issue relates to the high power and action of those solenoids, basically the hard hammering of the plunger and stop creates a mini earthquake every time and those delicate copper wires don't like it at all! Can't tell you how many pinball coils (especially flipper) I've partly unwound to find the break and solder back together to repair. And most E/M coils are in the weak 24 -30 volt range, so when you get to 240 volt coils they are scarily powerful in comparison. I guess the only other thought I have is where did your faulty coil collection come from, pieced together by you from different sources or all from the same place? Because they could have already been removed by an operator due to failure and never discarded?
Re: Solenoid connectivity
So JC, the 170 Reading I was getting was on the continuity setting on the multimeter, no idea what it means, but when I get continuity on anything, this will normally show 0....
Gameswat, these coils are all from Jamieson’s machines and each machine bought from separate source. They are not 240 like the earlier wonders machines in the thread, I am guessing maybe 24v, but probably stated in one of the guides on the resource section.
Odd really......if they have all really failed I am going to be doing a lot of winding, unless I am missing something.....
Gameswat, these coils are all from Jamieson’s machines and each machine bought from separate source. They are not 240 like the earlier wonders machines in the thread, I am guessing maybe 24v, but probably stated in one of the guides on the resource section.
Odd really......if they have all really failed I am going to be doing a lot of winding, unless I am missing something.....
Re: Solenoid connectivity
OK, let's see if I can help with some general understanding. The 170 reading will be ohms. You say you'd normally expect 0 when testing for continuity, and that's quite correct - there should be no resistance when testing for absolute continuity. However, you're testing a solenoid coil, in which there must be a resistance otherwise it wouldn't work. I've no idea whether or not 170 ohms is correct, but if the coil is operating at 24v as you suggest, the current would be 0.14 amps, or 140mA, which seems a bit low to me - I would expect a solenoid to draw more current.
In general, you need to have a basic understanding of the relationship between voltage, current and resistance, which is known as Ohm's law. The formula to remember is this:
V = I x R
where V is voltage in volts, I is current in amps and R is resistance in ohms.
The formula can also be expressed as:
I = V/R
and
R = V/I
I've no idea what sort of current a payout solenoid would draw in a Jamiesons machine, as I've never had to replace one, but I guess somewhere in the region of 1 to 2 amps, in which case you could expect a resistance of 12 to 25 ohms. But this is very much a guess - I really don't know! As a rule, the more powerful the solenoid, the more current it will draw, at a constant voltage.
I hope some of this will help, but do try to get an understanding of the relationship between V, I and R.
Jerry
In general, you need to have a basic understanding of the relationship between voltage, current and resistance, which is known as Ohm's law. The formula to remember is this:
V = I x R
where V is voltage in volts, I is current in amps and R is resistance in ohms.
The formula can also be expressed as:
I = V/R
and
R = V/I
I've no idea what sort of current a payout solenoid would draw in a Jamiesons machine, as I've never had to replace one, but I guess somewhere in the region of 1 to 2 amps, in which case you could expect a resistance of 12 to 25 ohms. But this is very much a guess - I really don't know! As a rule, the more powerful the solenoid, the more current it will draw, at a constant voltage.
I hope some of this will help, but do try to get an understanding of the relationship between V, I and R.
Jerry
Re: Solenoid connectivity
I really should not have left school at 9, well that was when my focus moved from education to others things.......
Looking again at the state of the first coil, the coating on the wire has degraded all over the place. These coils are not designed to last for sure, especially with a lump of metal shooting up and down them....probably last longer on a motor maybe....
Interestingly the Awg guides for different wire thicknesses both coated and uncoated give readings close to my wire gauge...
AWG Gauge Diameter Resist per 1000ft Max Curr in air Max Curr In jacket
31 0.2261mm 130.10Ω 0.7A 0.113A
32 0.2032mm 164.10Ω 0.53A 0.091A
I think mine is AWG31 according to my micrometer on stripped wire although never know how hard to push the screw as of course copper is soft......looks like I now have to buy a kilo of that wire rating and see how well I can recoil these
Looking again at the state of the first coil, the coating on the wire has degraded all over the place. These coils are not designed to last for sure, especially with a lump of metal shooting up and down them....probably last longer on a motor maybe....
Interestingly the Awg guides for different wire thicknesses both coated and uncoated give readings close to my wire gauge...
AWG Gauge Diameter Resist per 1000ft Max Curr in air Max Curr In jacket
31 0.2261mm 130.10Ω 0.7A 0.113A
32 0.2032mm 164.10Ω 0.53A 0.091A
I think mine is AWG31 according to my micrometer on stripped wire although never know how hard to push the screw as of course copper is soft......looks like I now have to buy a kilo of that wire rating and see how well I can recoil these
Re: Solenoid connectivity
I pulled our old coil winding machine apart when we shut our factory down in 2000 as barely used it anymore, was just a recycled Singer sewing motor with foot pedal control and a framework to easily bolt on and off the coil former onto a spindle, and a seperate rod to hold the feed spool. Plus an old mechanical counter attached to count revolutions when you wanted that. You just slowly moved the spool back and forth to evenly coat the former. I did keep the many different rolls of new wire leftover though. When I have to make them these days which is very occasionally I just use a battery hand drill with the former attached on a bolt. With the spool on a rod held in place on a vice, then move the drill back and forth to evenly coat the former. I usually don't even bother with particular number of windings, either I go by length of old wire if I can unwind it, or just diameter of the original coil. And if I need a wire gauge I don't have new on the spool I just take an existing good cond pinball coil that I have hundreds of and use that as the donation spool.
Re: Solenoid connectivity
Friends, I don't wish to be a clever clogs, but I think we are missing the point. This coil is working in an AC circuit and Ohms law will not apply. Because the coil is inductive it will have an impedance (denoted Z) not resistance both of which are measured in Ohms.
Re: Solenoid connectivity
Hmm, well I sort of agree and disagree, but either way, I think you're missing the point! Firstly, you say the solenoid is operating in an AC circuit - do you know that for sure? Although I can't be certain, as I only own one Jameisons machine and I don't have access to it right now, I'm pretty sure it's DC, with possibly the light bulbs operating on a separate AC circuit.
That aside, given that poor Tom didn't even understand what 170 meant when testing for continuity, the last thing I would want to do is introduce such terms as inductance, impedance and reactance - and of course, he was testing the coil out of circuit. I was merely giving him an idea of what sort of current he might expect a coil of a given resistance to draw. The resistance of any coil is what it is when tested out of circuit, and whether operating in an AC or DC circuit, Ohm's law still basically applies - in so much that, at a constant voltage the greater resistance, the less current will be drawn.
That aside, given that poor Tom didn't even understand what 170 meant when testing for continuity, the last thing I would want to do is introduce such terms as inductance, impedance and reactance - and of course, he was testing the coil out of circuit. I was merely giving him an idea of what sort of current he might expect a coil of a given resistance to draw. The resistance of any coil is what it is when tested out of circuit, and whether operating in an AC or DC circuit, Ohm's law still basically applies - in so much that, at a constant voltage the greater resistance, the less current will be drawn.
Re: Solenoid connectivity
And the current isn't constant either. But in a resistive circuit, there will be a constant ratio between voltage and current. OK, so the resistance in the curcuit is an inductor, but in the absence of capacitance, voltage and current will be in phase, and at such a low frequency, in my view, Ohm's law is still valid.But AC is not a constant voltage.
But you really have missed the point! This isn't an electrical engineering forum - it's about slot machines, and about giving a little help to those who do not have your knowledge. By all means, do the complex calculations (I won't, because I can't be arsed). We'll say a supply of 24v and a coil resistance of 24 ohms - that's really easy applying Ohm's law. How much different will your answer be?
Jerry
P.S. we still haven't established that it is actually an AC circuit. The more I think about it, I'm pretty sure it's DC
Re: Solenoid connectivity
I have to admit I had no idea what voltage the coil operated on and assume it was reduced due to a large transformer in the machine, but looking at Stuart’s very useful guide on the Rotopool, I think if reading correctly the solenoid coil and large bulb are actually behind the transformer and 240vac.....also after the transformer it looks like the bulbs are vac as well......
I might see if I can trace the wires in some of mine to the coil and confirm.....
I might see if I can trace the wires in some of mine to the coil and confirm.....
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