Machines on 2p and 10p coin, and 20p coin?

[tammy]

Does anyone know, is it now OK to operate and use for the public 2p 10p and 20p coin machines. I asked a lady at an East Coast arcade and she said those didn't need any licence. Was she right about all 3 coins? I know 1p and 2p used to be exempt but not sure if any changes... Is anyone in the know?

[coppinpr]

Interesting question, can we ask why you want to know?

As far as I know (others may know better) no coins have ever been exempt. The thing is how do you want to use the machine? Just at home, in an arcade, at some sort of function?
The licence problem is a minefield and you can find pages of info on this site regarding it. Bottom line is all slot machines that give a prize are considered gambling machines, regardless of age, even if they use old pennies, sixpences etc.
If you are a collector and use them just yourself, at home you do not need a licence to own and use them (but you do to sell, repair or service them (?))
If you want to sell one you can get a single machine licence 3 times a year and sell one (legally).

A few members on here operate legal antique slot machine arcades using only pre-decimal coins and they might tell you what licensing they use but I can't see how any current coinage can be exempt.

[brigham]

I seem to remember that penny machines became free from DUTY at one time. As far as I know, they still required a licence to be operated in public.
From 1 February 2013, 'Machine Games Duty' replaced 'Amusement Machine Licence Duty', which re-incorporated everything, and even included such dangerously anti-social devices as cranes and grabs.

[pennymachines]

Currently, payout gaming machines which take any coin up to a value of 20p and pay a prize value of £20 or less are subject to a 5% Machines Game Duty (i.e. 5% of total net takings go to HMRC). https://www.gov.uk/machine-game-duty/how-much-you-pay

As to licences and permits it gets complicated. Different types of premises or locations such as clubs, pubs, travelling fairs or permanent arcades (be they Adult gaming centres or Family entertainment centres) require particular licences: http://www.gamblingcommission.gov.uk/PD ... rcades.pdf

Likewise, technical definitions determine what permits are required for particular machines. Cranes and pushers, for example, are classed as ‘Non-Complex’ Category D. To be honest, I'm not sure where a mechanical bandit or allwin (operating on say a value of 10p-20p) would fall under current legislation. Moonriver has a working knowledge of all this, so perhaps he could comment.

I believe that in practice the few antique arcades that operate in the UK do so under ad hoc arrangements with local councils etc. and quiet Gambling Commission acquiescence.

[tammy]

Mm seems some things are changing? Not looked into what you put PM but did notice no tax if prize is less than that staked ie a polo sweet allwin on 20p play should be ok? The packets of mint polos are 10 tubes a pound at many shops. Also excludes domestic use which is sensible. Penny type cranes should be ok.with cheap under the stake prizes. Is this why many of the seaside arcade machines now only pay out tickets for a future prize...you need hundreds of tickets for a little silly prize?

[moonriver]

I believe that in practice the few antique arcades that operate in the UK do so under ad hoc arrangements with local councils etc. and quiet Gambling Commission acquiescence.

Re 'antique arcades' the above sums it up in a nutshell, (may also depend upon how many feathers you ruffle in the vicinity).
Stand alone ventures are rarely profitable unless accompanied by very high footfall in a tourist location, or a similar major attraction with a captive and pay to enter audience.

[pennymachines]

did notice no tax if prize is less than that staked ie a polo sweet allwin on 20p play should be ok?

That's true. Provided you cannot win more than the value of the coin inserted, it's not classed as gaming.

I think this 2011 Guardian article, The new slot machine tax will leave us all worse off, expresses quite well how most of us feel about the fun to be had at seaside amusement arcades and why it shouldn't be taxed out of existence.

[treefrog]

Of course most vintage arcades use old non currency coins bought in exchange for modern money. With no exchange money back or prize value stated, does this not mean for amusement only as there is no value?

[pennymachines]

Only if the Gambling Commission decide to interpret it that way. They might argue that if you sell your tokens for 5p each, that is their value, even if you refuse to redeem them.

It could also be said that the tokens have a value based upon their metal content. Vintage arcades have to charge scrap value or above, or they make a loss on coins that are taken away.

[treefrog]

I cannot see this happening in court, as if you as a operator clearly states for amusement only, no refund or returns or prizes awarded, then this is not different to playing a video game or pinball. The concept of playing to sell the old coins for metal value again cannot be argued if they are sold well above the scrap value or resell value, currently around 4p scrap and 6p buying as a coin, so most people probably sell that at least 5 times these values as they need to make a profit and know people will take as souvenirs. The GC would not persue such a situation........but appreciate if they had nothing else to do they could try.......I wouldn’t lose sleep over it.

I agree council permission would be needed irrespective from a business use perspective.

[tammy]

I personaly am surprised at how many people on ebay seem to be paying the Gambling Commission when they want to sell, a so called one off selling licence for some of these very old museum piece machines. With old classic and vintage cars you don't need to pay any tax and soon need no MOT over a certain age. I think it is time people took a picture of their machine with a description and if they said it needed one then ask why? It's silly, modern gambling machines are different. Maybe someone soon might take them to court if they continued. People would be in uproar if they did the same everytime you sold any tool, metal or wood working machine or put the same food? I can't understand how all these casinos are allowed which ruin the nation yet simple penny arcade machines which cheer a child's holiday up are not worth doing because of unfair taxes.

[treefrog]

eBay only follow this due to classifying all areas they may deem to be breaching regulations, eg knife sales.....a lot of other places do not worry and as has been discussed many times unlikely to be a target of the GC.

In terms of tax, selling a personal car is exempt from capital gains as most cars decrease in value. Slot machines are not exempt, although you may be hard pushed to prove a bandit is clockwork and exempt as antique watches are.

But all this does not relate to operating of course discussed in this thread.....

What the £25 does is allow you to sell to a wide audience and hope to get the money back unfortunately.

[coppinpr]

I personally am surprised at how many people on ebay seem to be paying the Gambling Commission when they want to sell, a so called one off selling licence for some of these very old museum piece machines

The only reason people buy single machine licences is so they can sell on ebay/gumtree. Until someone started reporting machines to ebay they didn't get removed and no one bought a licence. In the last eight months machines have, for the most part, stopped getting reported thus don't get removed as much and the number of people quoting a licence number has dropped.

[tammy]

The trouble with large organisations including silly wrong laws is it takes groups to take a stance and stand up against them...think of all the changes of even minority groups who now have freedoms and dont want to be bullied any more! Perhaps the answer is a large group to continually pester these people and anyone else in power till they get fed up and do see we have a large exempion cause for vintage and antique slot machine collectors and enthusiasts? I reckon if the old car or motorbike clubs were in same possition they wouldnt stand for it. Maybe time to stop being so nice with the gambling commision till they are really fed up with you all?
These vintage and antique machines in no way can be mixed up with modern day gambing machines as besides being often on obsolete coinage they never work for very long without opening them up do to continuous breakdowns, jammed up coins and parts coming loose or not functioning right...just the same as antique and vintage cars and motorcycles!

[treefrog]

The only reason people buy single machine licences is so they can sell on ebay/gumtree. Until someone started reporting machines to ebay they didnt get removed and no one bought a licence. In the last eight months machines have,for the most part, stopped getting reported thus dont get removed as much and the number of people quoting a licence number has dropped.

I am still not convinced that someone reporting a machine was the course all the time, but is an excuse eBay give as a reason for action to be taken. eBay definitely have software to detect listings. I have listed hundreds of parts of various types over the last year and in fact a couple of non bandit machines like a Bell Fruit Cascade. Anything with “arm bandit” or “fruit machine” etc if you remove key words the machine or part will list straight away, if any of the suspected wording exists, you get the GC warning or you will have the listing go to a moderator, which can take 12 hours to be approved or not before being listed. It does seem to vary the mix of words. Also I would not be surprised if they had image detection technology as well to determine if something is non compliant

[pennymachines]

I cannot see this happening in court...

It wouldn't be decided by a court unless a vintage arcade operator had the time, courage and resources to take the Gambling Commission there.

Remember, pinballs were gambling machines although they paid out nothing, because a free play was defined as a 'thing of value'.

This wasn't changed until the Gambling Act of 2005 (which came into effect in September 2007), and not as the result of any court action from the industry. The 'thing of value' became 'a prize'.

248 No prize
A person does not commit an offence under section 37 or 242 if —
(a) he makes a gaming machine available for use by an individual, and
(b) the individual does not, by using the machine, acquire an opportunity to win a prize.

A free game was deemed not to be a prize by another part of the same act:

239 Prize
In this Act “prize” in relation to a gaming machine—
(a) includes any money, article, right or service won, whether or not described as a prize, but
(b) does not include an opportunity to play the machine again.

[badpenny]

I personaly am surprised at how many people on ebay seem to be paying the Gambling Commission when they want to sell, a so called one off selling licence for some of these very old museum piece machines. With old classic and vintage cars you don't need to pay any tax and soon need no MOT over a certain age. I think it is time people took a picture of their machine with a description and if they said it needed one then ask why? It's silly, modern gambling machines are different. Maybe someone soon might take them to court if they continued. People would be in uproar if they did the same everytime you sold any tool, metal or wood working machine or put the same food? I can't understand how all these casinos are allowed which ruin the nation yet simple penny arcade machines which cheer a child's holiday up are not worth doing because of unfair taxes.

Hang on a minute everyone, before we all go charging off down a well worn route as if it's something that has just occurred.
Although anybody is entitled to an opinion, we have already bottomed this one out on more than one occasion already, and I'd have hoped realised by now that for the sake of the hobby a low profile is preferable.

Tammy your approach is akin to complaining about tigers by swinging one around by its tail.
Your analogy to old cars, metal/woodworking tools is irrelevant and what food has to do with anything is beyond me.


Nobody will be taking the GC to court because laws have been passed dictating what the process is. The fact that you think The GC made the laws and can decide what happens confirms how little you know about laws here and how they work. The GC are the stewards of gambling laws that were passed by the government through parliament. The GC don't care whether the laws are fair, right, stupid or whatever. They don't enforce any laws, the police do, they don't prosecute either, The Crown Prosecution Service do that. Common sense nor children's holiday happiness have any part to play in any of this. It's the law of the land and a law can't be changed without another act of parliament …… which isn't going to happen.


Those of us whom have been around for a few years will remember this forum having an active thread whereby one of our popular members attempted to run a petition via a Government website to get the law changed. The complexities of doing that not only killed any action dead in the water it did our hobby no favours in my mind. Even after a team of our best minds and experts met with GC to put our case, all we did was raise our own personal profiles.

There are many of us who carefully watch the GC activity and what is bothering them currently, it is best to be seen to respect them. They don't need additional hassle distracting them from their core activity of addressing organised crime, and we don't need the police knocking on our doors because an individual we don't like has been educated (probably by us) that it's illegal to sell or even just repair one of our machines, and all they had to do was make a phone call. Before anyone says that's never going to happen or is just unlikely ….. I know three ex collectors who've had that visit during the last 15 years. If a complaint is made they will investigate regardless. It's too easy to stuff ourselves by shouting this around.


And what is more this is a public forum, so let's just remember for the sake of just enjoying the hobby, let's accept we don't like all the hoops we have to jump through.


BP

[tammy]

I am surprised at what you have wrote badpenny as i did 2 auctions with you and some bring and buy sales just over 15 years ago. I surpose you realise now who i am and that i am not new to this topic.
Sadely i do not agree with your comments, as i feel we can do even less now than we could then, and simple seaside penny arcades are the same. When was the last time in most ( if not all of them) that you saw any 2p one arm bandits for kids to play on. The arcades are getting so boring now that my daughter doesnt take the kids in. I am only giving suggestions but sometimes if you dont stick up for what you believe in,&then one day it isnt there.
My suggestion would be a club with small subscription that would fight for collectors rights...before they dissapear forever!

[badpenny]

I guess you're my old mate, the one I last saw at Hemswell Cliff

The reason you and I worked very well together was we listened to each other and respected each other's experience. Everything I said above is based on what we learnt the last time we tried to get it changed. Nothing has altered since then, in fact so far as collectors are concerned the only thing that's different is the £25 selling licence.
When I had the pub all we had to do was send them a list of what was being sold.
So far as arcades and operators are concerned I can't comment. However I am a collector and support not poking the tiger with a sharp stick.

Your suggestion of a club with small subscription that would fight for collectors rights is different, but I would point out that getting people to put their hands in their pockets just to pay for an auction catalogue is controversial. Plus I can't think of a single right a collector of anything has. What did you mean by that, please tell me I've over looked something?

I'd be more interested in hearing what this action group of yours would physically do? Who they would appeal to and how?
Assuming you are the person I think you are, you were the fairest of people right to the moment you stopped your magazine, unlike your predecessor. Even then somebody (so the evidence suggests) scuppered your last auction with a phone call, so I remember. Then you may remember the get together day I organised the following year and then after advertising it amongst the slotty press of the time, I got a visit from the local bobby on his bike. He didn't understand why he was there but was following orders to advise me that somebody had pointed out to them that it wasn't a good idea.
Big cats are best left alone in peace.

BP

[tammy]

Hi badpenny it is nice to hear from you again...greetings!
I felt my thoughts and possible suggestions donot need further comment except were you asked i dont know of any rights that other collectors have..in that, it answers itself. They have the right to sell, swap etc freely without hinderance, plus when they sell anything they dont have a one off each item selling charge that goes to the government. At the least if they bring these possible or existing laws in, they should have a complete exemption clause for all us collectors of vintage, antique slots as the norm. Its like discrimination and needs putting right by some one!
TAKE CARE AND HAPPY SLOTTING!