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beromat
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Joined: Tue Jun 19, 2018 2:10 pm

Info wanted to improve an Autofruit emulation

Postby beromat » Fri Sep 28, 2018 7:02 pm

I don't think I ever played the Autofruit, or one of its siblings, back in the days when penny arcades really were 1D arcades as I preferred its bigger cousins, the horse racing and roulette type of game as I found those more visually interesting. So when I joined this forum a few months back, seeing pictures and videos of Autofruits was a bit of an "oh, don't remember that" moment. It was also, as a retired programmer, an "I bet it wouldn't be too difficult to write a program that does that" moment. So that is what I did, I wrote a "fun money" program and I've put it on my website as freeware along with other stuff I've written. However, that is possibly just a first stage in development, and in order to do more I need to ask you guys who actually have these machines a few questions as the inner workings are not completely obvious if you have no access to them.

To give my questions a context I'd better briefly digress into what I have already done. I have made an emulation of the original Lemon pays 8D machine. Why an emulation and not a simulation? That is down to my ability with graphics which a Scot might describe as being "like a coo wi' a gun"! Why the 8D version? Because simple arithmetic, combined with videos of the 6D machine's "Losses" switch says it has to be simpler.

It seemed obvious that the innards of the machine must have some analogue to a roulette wheel. The questions were, how many "slots" and how many of those "slots" per fruit. So looking at the 8D machine payouts, if there was 1 position for the Bell then for the Lemon there had to be 12/8 positions for the Lemon. Clearly that doesn't work, so try again with 2 positions for the Bell, that gives (12 / 8) x 2 = 3 positions for the Lemon. Nya ha! Progress! In a similar vein it soon becomes apparent how many slots the other fruits need. That gives a total of 35 which looked uncomfortable to divide into 360 degrees so I figured there was probably a Lose position, giving 36 nicely sized 10 degree slots. I then saw the videos, counted the positions on the rotary switch and bingo! Thus encouraged I proceeded with the program. I even remembered not to stop on Lose when there are no bets!

So to the questions for further development.

1) I would like to make my program as accurate as possible, so whilst I have the correct number of each fruit in a list which the program steps through and looks reasonably realistic. I would actually like to have the same order as the real machine. Can anyone supply that please? Being circular, it doesn't matter where you start with the list. This would be an utterly trivial change to make.

2) I would like to then add an option to make it emulate both versions of the machine, but, as a first stage, without the Losses switch. This involves slightly more work, so before I commit myself to that it would be nice to know if the sequence of connections from the rotor to the fruits is still the same as the 8D machine, but with the fixed Loss position changed to a Lemon? If you work out how many slots are needed to give the correct payouts as before it comes to 18 including 2 for Lemon, so double that to fill 36 slots. So, if anyone knows the 6D machine sequence I would appreciate it if that information could be shared. (Incidentally, that disproves the myth that having Lemon = 8D is more generous than 6D as 3 slots paying out 8D comes to exactly the same 24D as 4 slots paying out 6D! (I cannot feel smug, I fell for that myth too!)

3) The final stage will be to emulate the Losses switch. But it is not clear how that works. What is clear is that all 36 positions of the rotor must connect to fruits otherwise the display whilst "playing" would not be one light per clunk of the rotor. Hence, and this is why I initially said the 6D machine must be more complex, some rotor positions must be overrideable to a Loss state. Equally clearly, 3 of these dual purpose positions must be selectable by setting the switch to 3, but which? Are they sequential or spread around the rotor. Is it the same 3 positions plus 3 more when the switch is at 6, or 6 different positions. And obviously the same questions arise for the 9 position. Can anyone enlighten me please?

B.T.W. #1 : It is highly unlikely that the machines were rigged to hit Lose more if you played all 5 symbols at once. If you play the same 1 symbol 36 times and each stop on the rotor is hit you will lose 12D regardless of which is your selection. If you play more coins in a fixed selection you simply lose 12D times the number of coins in the same 36 play scenario. So why would anyone want to discourage you from losing money 5 times faster than necessary by imposing extra Lose results? Surely they would want to encourage you to keep throwing money away at a high rate?

B.T.W #2 : The download link is at http://racingdog.hostfree.pw/Freeware.html right at the bottom (Note the capital F)

So what do I think of the machine now I have had a chance to play it, albeit in emulated form? Well the basic machines are a rip off, but that is true of all our beloved machines. However, if the Lose selector is set to 3 it becomes a complete rip off, to 6 and it is a total rip off, to 9 and it is a complete and total rip off! Basically, if you see a Lose light illuminate on a 6D machine, find something else to play!

Thanks in advance,
Derek

brigham
Posts: 317
Joined: Tue Oct 31, 2017 3:37 pm

Re: Info wanted to improve an Autofruit emulation

Postby brigham » Sat Sep 29, 2018 7:43 am

I have the contact positions written-out somewhere, for both 'no-bets' and 'coin in' sequences. I'll have a look for them.
Have you grasped the notion that there is no random element?

beromat
Posts: 20
Joined: Tue Jun 19, 2018 2:10 pm

Re: Info wanted to improve an Autofruit emulation

Postby beromat » Sun Sep 30, 2018 7:39 pm

That would be great ta.

My ability with my wristwatch's stop watch may be exceedingly suspect, but I got the impression the length of time the rotor moves was not exact from one game to the next, so I had that tagged as a possible source of randomness. As I said, I'm just guessing about everything else from limited information, but I'd convinced myself that no other aspects were random as it just sounded too complicated for the technology available.

If nothing is random, doesn't that make outcomes predictable?

Cheers,
Derek

rippyspennyarcade
Posts: 91
Joined: Thu Jan 31, 2008 1:18 pm

Re: Info wanted to improve an Autofruit emulation

Postby rippyspennyarcade » Sun Sep 30, 2018 8:11 pm

The length of time the rotor moves is different each game thanks to an interrupter stop/start unit. Every time the contact drops in to a notch it stops the main cam unit for a few seconds. This prevents any recurring sequence.
APMa.jpg

brigham
Posts: 317
Joined: Tue Oct 31, 2017 3:37 pm

Re: Info wanted to improve an Autofruit emulation

Postby brigham » Mon Oct 01, 2018 8:59 am

The 'variator', as that rotor is known, delays the start of the selector by a different amount each game, which gives the APPEARANCE of a random element.
However, the variator itself runs continuously, and in step with the main control drum, by virtue of both being synchronized to the same mains supply; so it too plays a known and repeated part in the game cycle.
It's a long cycle, and I was at one time going to count how many games it takes to repeat, but more interesting things intervened.
Like the ENIGMA, it has a weak spot. The giveaway is the 1/- win. (Elvis Presley, on my version). There is only ONE position on the selector which is connected to the 1/- payout, when coins are in play. When Elvis comes up, we KNOW where the selector is resting.

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Re: Info wanted to improve an Autofruit emulation

Postby pennymachines » Mon Oct 01, 2018 12:52 pm

And then there's the hornswoggle...

brigham
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Re: Info wanted to improve an Autofruit emulation

Postby brigham » Mon Oct 01, 2018 1:08 pm

I've found my notes.
I'll post them tonight, after work.
They relate to 'Top Ten', but as far as I'm aware, they are all just cosmetic variations on the same machine.

brigham
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Re: Info wanted to improve an Autofruit emulation

Postby brigham » Mon Oct 01, 2018 5:40 pm

Right, here we go!

These notes refer to the Jamieson's 'Top Ten' of 1962.
There are 36 positions on the selector, which I have numbered from 1 to 36, from an arbitrary position 1 at the extreme rear of the cabinet, and running consecutively in the direction of rotation of the wiper.
There are five possible 'win' positions on the front glass, which I have numbered 1-5 from left to right.
These pay out 4, 2, 12, 2, 6, respectively.
Position 1 connects to 'Win' 2 when no bet placed, and to 'Win' 2 when a bet is made.
Position 2 connects to 'Win' 3 when no bet placed, and to 'Win' 4 when a bet is made.
Position 3 connects to 'Win' 5 when no bet placed, and to 'Win' 5 when a bet is made.
Position 4 connects to 'Win' 1 when no bet placed, and to 'Win' 1 when a bet is made.
Position 5 connects to 'Win' 2 when no bet placed, and to 'Win' 2 when a bet is made.
Position 6 connects to 'Win' 4 when no bet placed, and to 'Win' 4 when a bet is made.
Position 7 connects to 'Win' 5 when no bet placed, and to 'Win' 2 when a bet is made.
Position 8 connects to 'Win' 1 when no bet placed, and to 'Win' 1 when a bet is made.
Position 9 connects to 'Win' 2 when no bet placed, and to 'Win' 2 when a bet is made.
Position 10 connects to 'Win' 3 when no bet placed, and to 'Win' 4 when a bet is made.
Position 11 connects to 'Win' 2 when no bet placed, and to 'Win' 2 when a bet is made.
Position 12 connects to 'Win' 1 when no bet placed, and to 'Win' 1 when a bet is made.
Position 13 connects to 'Win' 5 when no bet placed, and to 'Win' 2 when a bet is made.
Position 14 connects to 'Win' 4 when no bet placed, and to 'Win' 4 when a bet is made.
Position 16 connects to 'Win' 3 when no bet placed, and to 'Win' 4 when a bet is made.
Position 17 connects to 'Win' 5 when no bet placed, and to 'Win' 2 when a bet is made.
Position 18 connects to 'Win' 4 when no bet placed, and to 'Win' 4 when a bet is made.
Position 19 connects to 'Win' 2 when no bet placed, and to 'Win' 2 when a bet is made.
Position 20 connects to 'Win' 3 when no bet placed, and to 'Win' 4 when a bet is made.
Position 21 connects to 'Win' 1 when no bet placed, and to 'Win' 1 when a bet is made.
Position 22 connects to 'Win' 4 when no bet placed, and to 'Win' 4 when a bet is made.
Position 23 connects to 'Win' 5 when no bet placed, and to 'Win' 5 when a bet is made.
Position 24 connects to 'Win' 2 when no bet placed, and to 'Win' 2 when a bet is made.
Position 25 connects to 'Win' 3 when no bet placed, and to 'Win' 3 when a bet is made.
Position 26 connects to 'Win' 4 when no bet placed, and to 'Win' 4 when a bet is made.
Position 27 connects to 'Win' 5 when no bet placed, and to 'Win' 2 when a bet is made.
Position 28 connects to 'Win' 3 when no bet placed, and to 'Win' 4 when a bet is made.
Position 29 connects to 'Win' 1 when no bet placed, and to 'Win' 1 when a bet is made.
Position 30 connects to 'Win' 2 when no bet placed, and to 'Win' 2 when a bet is made.
Position 31 connects to 'Win' 4 when no bet placed, and to 'Win' 4 when a bet is made.
Position 32 connects to 'Win' 5 when no bet placed, and to 'Win' 2 when a bet is made.
Position 33 connects to 'Win' 1 when no bet placed, and to 'Win' 1 when a bet is made.
Position 34 connects to 'Win' 2 when no bet placed, and to 'Win' 2 when a bet is made.
Position 35 connects to 'Win' 3 when no bet placed, and to 'Win' 4 when a bet is made.
And finally,
Position 36 connects to 'Win' 5 when no bet placed, and to 'Win' 2 when a bet is made.

These figures could be transferred to a simple table, by someone with the necessary computer skills, and the pattern of results would become evident.
The 'give-away' position is No. 25. It is the ONLY contact on the selector which is ALWAYS connected to the 1/- payout.
When the machine pays out twelve, the selector IS resting on No. 25.

This machine has an 'odds' adjuster, with positions 0,3,6,9, which correspond to the number of 'LOSE' indications introduced to the game in place of possible winning positions.
I have the figures for these, and the changes they effect, if you need them. I must try and find a less cumbersome way to post a table of figures.

Please feel free to ask, if anything is still not clear.

beromat
Posts: 20
Joined: Tue Jun 19, 2018 2:10 pm

Re: Info wanted to improve an Autofruit emulation

Postby beromat » Tue Oct 02, 2018 1:46 pm

Yes I see! Thanks all, but please keep an eye on this thread (well for a little while at least!) as I may eventually need the Lose effect data.

I'm a bit busy for the next few days, but I will be analysing all that asap. Then I'll figure how much more I want to do.

Thanks again,
Derek

beromat
Posts: 20
Joined: Tue Jun 19, 2018 2:10 pm

Re: Info wanted to improve an Autofruit emulation

Postby beromat » Tue Oct 02, 2018 7:48 pm

I had few minutes just to look at the figures and I was doing my head in because they didn't add up. Then I realised Position 15 isn't in the list! :HaHa:

Go on, be a sport, give me a clue! Please.

Cheers,
Derek


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