Are Bryans machines overrated??

[tammy]

Bryan's machines are they overrated in price?

Does anyone else think like me over the years that Bryans machines, although liked like other vintage amusement machines, are seen by some as a Rolls Royce in the vintage slots world and fetch really high prices.

Here is my reasoning behind what I have felt for many years. Despite the fact I have had quite a number of them over the years, I don't have any in my collection.
1/ They were made in similar numbers to Oliver Whales machines and at decimal currency the operators sold both on, getting rid at same rate, often as little as £4 each for an allwin.
The quality isn't often as high as some collectors state, esp. with cabinets... I know Whales machines were of poorer quality... getting the phrase 'Cheap and Cheerful' due to cheaply made but beautiful colourful backflashes!
2/ In my opinion I love the Bryans old penny cranes and the Elevenses but not the Fivewins, and find some of the Bryans machines rather boring compared with other vintage machines.

I find it REALLY DIFFICULT to go along with how many people selling Bryans machines often put dates from the '50s to '60s, when the machines they are selling were sometimes made after the decimal years, possibly up to the 1990s, when they were still being made in limited numbers.

Does anyone else feel a lot of Bryans stuff is overrated and one day will take a crashing of prices when they find a more realistic level??

[treefrog]

You’re right about one thing, the cabinets were not high quality, but I suspect you would get a flood of response, if not in writing on here, but in spirit. The key thing is that Mr Bryans had the most inventive creative mind in creating probably the widest range of overly complicated, varied and interesting machines to any other company. Look at the list, from the Hidden Treasure to the Double Top. Not all were successful and many were made in very few numbers, as per the rarity lists on Melright's site or Braithewaite's book. I also believe there will be a machine or two that would appeal to every taste of collector.

These are are few of the many reasons me thinks the machines will be high up the list in collectibility and price .....try getting hold of some of them.

[coppinpr]

As far as some allwins go I agree. I've never understood why the Elevenses is so sought-after; it's boring. For me, Parkers are "Rolls Royce" of allwins.

[tammy]

Yes, you are right about the Bryan's inventiveness!
Also I have thought since writing I should have included the Bryans Clock and Fruit Bowl in the ones that I do really like.
As for price, I am not convinced that they will always keep some of the very high amounts that they change hands for at the moment.

[treefrog]

Of course market trends in pricing go up and down, but it does detract from how popular or rare a machine is, which will always be the case and, as such, people will pay to get a machine they want.

I would never pay for a Watling Rol a Top, as I think they are seriously overpriced and were made in large volumes, but others like the look and will pay for one... That’s the way of our collectables world...

[tammy]

I suppose it's funny how we all like different machines.
I have always found machines like the Bryans Allsports, the Payramid and Double Decker, to name just three, as somewhat boring... even in the old arcade days I did.

Whereas.. the Watling Rol a Top bandits, I loved them when I was a young boy. When at Withernsea, East Yorkshire I first saw a row of them in the old penny seaside arcade there (it was Teddies Arcade) with their double rows of mints and multi jackpots and beautiful castings covered with the birds, the horn of plenty, and gold like coins.. the reels strips with interesting words etc on. I just had to put a penny or two in them and fell in love with them then!
Even at their high price today, if I came into money I believe would go and buy a genuine one!
I say genuine one, as there are many copies and some people were making the the castings in the past and passing them off as the original items!

[bryans fan]

I think it boils down to supply and demand. Some Bryans machines were made in relatively small numbers according to Braithwaite's book, and how many have survived? According to the book there were 42 of the Six-O-More made. So perhaps only half have survived. Bryans machines of late seem to have gone down in price, perhaps everyone who wants a Gapwin, for instance, has one. Ours is still a very niche hobby in comparison to many areas of collecting. It only needs two people who are desperate for a particular machine to push the price up. I recall a sudden leap in Wonders prices a couple of years ago.

[coppinpr]

Ours is still a very niche hobby in comparison to many areas of collecting. It only needs two people who are desperate for a particular machine to push the price up

That's such a valid point! It's also interesting how fashions change. My guess is Whales machines will go up in value despite being (relatively) common as collectors look to build up a small selection of different models while prices are reasonable... Penny personal weight machines are another example, totally ignored by collectors for so long due to there size and vast numbers available. Consequently, most were scrapped. Now few survive and their charm has been recognized and prices are high.

[tammy]

Some of the details and especially numbers of machines quoted to have been made in the Braithwaite's slot machine book I believe need to be not taken too serious.

It's a good book and gives good general knowledge but accurate it isn't always.
A good example is the large Win a Cig or Fag. They are the same in size as the sister and brother Fill Em Up and Many Happy Returns range. The large Win a Cig, with rows of balls and picture, is quoted as very rare with just one machine.
I, after the book came out have picked up two of them on separate occasions and have seen no end of them for sale, especially on ebay! Sometimes the seller now in the details quotes Braithwaite's book stating, "only one example known... very rare!"

I used to collect old coins when I was young and the Royal Mint isn't sure of the coin mintage figures it has published in the past. Some dates of rare pennies they later put a larger amount and some dates that they were supposed to have minted none now they put a very small amount!
History is a bit like this... a lot of inventions were British but often it's patents and people buying an invention out.
A good example is Edison invented the light bulb... Well he didn't. Swan a British inventor did. My dad who's now gone said many were working on the electric light at the same time but Swan's was the first. Edison bought it out and patented it!

[coppinpr]

Another example in the same vein...
I've been interested in a particular type of antique china for a very long time. When I started collecting it the "Bible" for that china was a large and regularly update price guide... then along came the internet and, 21 years ago, ebay uk and that price guide became obsolete overnight as people seeing the china online thought, "my granny left me a box of that, it's in the attic and I don't want it". Prices on many items crashed as available numbers increased and models never before listed in the price guide suddenly appeared, fetching very high prices. It's true to say that within two years ebay inadvertently set the standard prices in that particular field and still does.

[tammy]

Yes it's interesting how market trends change.
The first time that I had started collecting what would be later known as vintage slot machines I called at a well known arcade at Scarborough. It was 1972 or 73 and I talked with the owner if he had any of the old machines in storage and that I was interested in buying such!

Somehow or other he wasn't interested in letting go the old stuff but thought I would buy the pusher machines.
Taking me to what seemed like a very large cellar underneath the arcade, full of loads of lovely old stuff including counter top viewers (Oliver Whales?) with film, cowboy and all sorts of themes, all on old penny play!

When he realized I was only after the older stuff, he let me have an old penny Oliver Whales Kiss-o-Meter and a Whales allwin size Giftmaster on 6d and a shilling that still had all the old gifts behind the glass.
"You can have them at £10 a piece", he said, and I bought them.
But it was his words I can still remember today as I carried them to my mini van with happiness - he said to me, "they will never be worth anything you know, as there are too many of them."
I thought at that time he was wrong... but I wouldn't have been bothered if they never increased in value, as to me they were all wonderful!

[pennymachines]

Some of the details and especially numbers of machines quoted to have been made in the Braithwaite's slot machine book I believe need to be not taken too serious.

It's a good book and gives good general knowledge but accurate it isn't always.
A good example is the large Win a Cig or Fag. They are the same in size as the sister and brother Fill Em Up and Many Happy Returns range. The large Win a Cig, with rows of balls and picture, is quoted as very rare with just one machine.

The 'Win a Cig' machine is called Yours To Be Won and the book makes no estimate of surviving numbers. In a caption below its image, John Carter says, "it is the only one I have ever encountered", which I'm sure was accurate. As we discussed here, it's now considered 'quite rare'.

Paul Braithwaite took pains to avoid inaccuracies and was scrupulous in citing sources. He quotes numbers of Bryans machines sold from the factory order book so, together with the serial numbers stamped on the machines, we have a fairly good idea of relative rarity with these.

...A good example is Edison invented the light bulb... Well he didn't. Swan a British inventor did. My dad who's now gone said many were working on the electric light at the same time but Swan's was the first. Edison bought it out and patented it!

Decades before Swan, British scientist Warren de la Rue made an effective light bulb, but it was expensive. The design that Swan patented was impractical:

Edison realized that the problem with Swan's design was the filament. A thin filament with high electrical resistance would make a lamp practical because it would require only a little current to make it glow. He demonstrated his light bulb in December 1879. Swan incorporated the improvement into his light bulbs and founded an electrical lighting company in England. Edison sued for patent infringement, but Swan's patent was a strong claim, at least in the United Kingdom, and the two inventors eventually joined forces and formed Edison-Swan United, which became one of the world’s largest manufacturers of light bulbs,

Who Invented the Light Bulb? Livescience.com

But I'm not sure what this has to do with the topic...

[badpenny]

[bryans fan]

Some of the details and especially numbers of machines quoted to have been made in the Braithwaite's slot machine book I believe need to be not taken too serious.

PM beat me to it!
I am only referring to Bryans machines as in my answer to Tammy`s post.
I spoke with Paul Braithwaite when the book was published, and I stand by what I said regarding the numbers produced of Bryans machines. He obtained the actual sales figures from Jim Bryan.

[pennymachines]

I do agree with Tammy that the Payramid is overrated. Members of this forum (myself included) have claimed it's brilliant, so I feel partly responsible for this. I would like therefore (if forum rules did not forbid it) to buy them from anyone who feels they have been mislead, for £500 each, which I believe is their more accurately rated value.

[badpenny]

I've not researched the contemporary retail prices or compared the different manufacturers.
However I imagine Bryans were more expensive than the competition.
If I'd been an operator I'd have been tempted by Bryans over the others for the following reasons: -

Their willingness to do part exchange.
Variable pay outs and adjustable play.
Shiny and bright colours
Eye catching controls more varied than a mere ball trigger
Invisible features that help the operator %

Bryans demonstrated to their customers they were supplying "Business Tools" which were not just for amusement only.
I don't think they always got it right though some were definitely too complicated and/or confusing.

BP

[treefrog]

I am not sure there is any evidence of prices going down, we had an odd auction recently at the Elephant where a few did not sell high, but sometimes this can be down to who is in the room. Trust me, if something was too cheap, people would snap up....

As the point has been made, we all have different tastes, thank god and often our tastes change, mine has. Also trends will change, but there does seem to be some unwritten rules on what something should be worth, often over abused......

For machines have to have something, either in play, rarity and most importantly the look has to grab me. I remember when a Bryans Windmill came up for sale at the Coventry auction and was tempted, in fact was bidding the eventual winner, but stopped because one it looks like a clock and secondly was not any more exciting, so really it was only about rarity for me.....

[john t peterson]

I find all the above a fascinating discussion about collecting in general and Bryans in specific. My experience is that individuals covet items from their youth. There will be exceptions, I being one as I never saw a British coin-op machine until well into my adult years but I regard that as an outlier. The greater issue is what (or more specifically - who -) comes next for our hobby? As the games of one's youth evolve from allwins to fruit machines and beyond, who arrives to treasure the older games? I suspect the answer is a future generation yet unborn. These machines are unique not only in construction but also in the ability to reflect the interests and emotions of their time. God help the current generation if they grow to revere these current times but that's a discussion for another day. Long live Bryans, Whales, British Manufacturing, Parkers and all the other wonderful manufactures of yore. Their creativity and genius is timeless!

J Peterson
Timing out in America