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chris rideout
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Re: How many cherries?

Postby chris rideout » Wed Feb 26, 2020 3:35 pm

Hello Badpenny. I may have missed something here but I assumed the law permitting operation of gaming machines came into force in January 1961. As for the currency query, the UK maximum win was 12 pennies cash or 5 shillings in kind. I was indeed implying that the fairground sharks were cutting down the wins and their machines often had lemons stuck on top of other symbols to cut the payouts down to the bone.

Do you or anyone else know what the gaming scene was like prior to 1961? I was in infants or junior school in those days and the teachers failed to teach us anything about gaming machines!

treefrog wrote:
Tue Feb 25, 2020 5:33 pm
I would love to know the history of the darker side of machine operating in Britain and whether anything has been publish on the same.
One person who had a bed and breakfast guest house on the Isle of Wight told me some stories. In London, he had a junk shop. He also had a friend who was a dustbin man. When the police raided an illegal gambling den, they confiscated the machines and threw them into dustbins round the back. The dustcart picked the machines up and they were dropped off discreetly at the back of the junk shop to be repaired. A week or so later, the machines would be back in the gambling den (probably at a new address) earning money to pay the fines!

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treefrog
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Re: How many cherries?

Postby treefrog » Wed Feb 26, 2020 6:40 pm

As stated above it would be great to find info on how and what gaming relating to our hobby took place before 1960. Although the new act at that time clarified the rules and licensing of things like bookmakers, machines in pubs and clubs and casinos, there must have been gaming before that. Most British manufacturers were making machines classified as gaming including Bolands, Bryans Wonders etc, so what were the rules and where were they played?

The first legal casino was in Port Talbot in 1961, the Casino Club.



The gaming acts prior to this were old back to 1902 and Victorian times and no provision for licensing seems to have been available. I can only assume all outlets were illegal. As such, all the manufacturers were supplying machines to the criminal world. !PUZZLED!

Certainly a lot of older British machines had payouts way above the 12 coin limit.....

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badpenny
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Re: How many cherries?

Postby badpenny » Wed Feb 26, 2020 8:37 pm

My Uncle Gordon, had two arcades back then in Paignton.
He (and all the other operators) relied on The Rozzers ....

* .... being confused about the vague laws concerning arcade machines, prior and immediately after the new act.
* .... wanting to have a back door they could knock on out of season where they gain access to a warm workshop and a kettle.
* .... being happy that a pier stretching out over the sea and in the air meant the evil machines weren't physically in the country.

The other arcade was in a private clubhouse on site at his caravan club, which meant general public were not allowed to stroll in. And if you believe that you're just the punter he wanted.
It was commonly shared between the operators that it was the shady nature of arcades that drew them in. Once it all went legal and with rules attached business dropped noticeably, nationally.

BP :didact:

chris rideout
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Re: How many cherries?

Postby chris rideout » Tue Mar 03, 2020 12:14 pm

If you were able to look at the reel tapes, it would usually give the game away.

On the 1st reel:
2 cherries = pay 3 coins. 3 cherries = pay 2 coins.
About 5 cherries = pays nothing unless the 2nd reel is also a cherry.

On the 2nd reel:
5 or 6 cherries = pays 5 or 4 coins respectively.

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badpenny
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Re: How many cherries?

Postby badpenny » Tue Mar 03, 2020 12:24 pm

Sorry Chris, it would give what game away?
Which question are you solving there?

BP !PUZZLED!

chris rideout
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Re: How many cherries?

Postby chris rideout » Tue Mar 03, 2020 12:59 pm

Maybe I should have said "how many coins" are paid according to the cherries rather than "how many cherries" according to the coins paid out. Many machines had their awards "adjusted" and one way of finding out the original winning combinations would be to examine the reel tapes and suss out the awards accordingly.

Hopefully I have clarified my ambiguous reply. My O level English ain't working proper today!

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badpenny
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Re: How many cherries?

Postby badpenny » Tue Mar 03, 2020 4:15 pm

Chris your O level English is fine, my skew whiff common sense is rarely firing on four cylinders.

I agree with your explanation, but it makes the assumption that a machine or its mech is original and not a reproduction. If only that were a given.
My opening post on this thread is attempting (not successfully though) to throw light on such features as pay out combinations at different periods for the sole purpose of wheedling out the fakes.

I get fearful when I see the likes of a War Eagle or Castle Front with a pay out on single cherry or a Poinsettia with shiny shiny insides.
Attempting to get to the bottom of when the manufacturing runs of certain models ended should help throw light on the likelihood of say, a Castle Front being turned out after World War Twice. Which is when general opinion suggests pay outs moved to include single cherry. Alternatively is such a machine really a Hi-top mech slid into a 30s stylish cabinet and a repro Castle Front casting bolted on the front?

BP

quadibloc
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Re: How many cherries?

Postby quadibloc » Wed Mar 04, 2020 5:18 am

badpenny wrote:
Tue Mar 03, 2020 4:15 pm
I get fearful when I see the likes of a War Eagle or Castle Front with a pay out on single cherry
As well you might! Of course machines can have their payouts altered, and not only by misguided collectors. When single-cherry payouts became fashionable, or, for that matter, when paying out 18 coins for three bars on any of the three visible lines - like on the Buckley Criss-Cross and then the Jennings Tic-Tac-Toe - became fashionable, a Mills War Eagle silent bell could have had its payouts and reel strips altered while in actual service.

So to determine when certain payout schemes began appearing, the place to look would be the pages of publications like Billboard and Automatic Age magazine.

In fact, that's where I've recently been hunting to see if there's any evidence that any manufacturer (or even any company doing revamps) had single-cherry payout before the United States entered World War II. And also to find out who originated single-cherry payout. I had originally thought (from a superficial impression, rather than actual evidence) it was Jennings and not Mills, but it appears I was wrong about that. But the earliest Mills machines with a payout on a single cherry still did not have cherries on the third reel, so the transition to the modern form of single-cherry payout was complicated, having taken place in two steps, it seems.

I've just now done some additional searching. A payout on a cherry on the first reel seems to have been introduced in 1939, on the Mills Diamond Front. This was a revamp based on a Mills mechanism, so the innovation came from a third-party company, not Mills. And some Jennings machines in 1946 offered a payout on three cherries and two cherries and a bar, so the modern form of the single-cherry payout apparently was introduced by Jennings.

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badpenny
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Re: How many cherries?

Postby badpenny » Wed Mar 04, 2020 12:41 pm

Thanks quadibloc ....

That's really interesting.
I'm not overly bothered about original machines having been revamped while in service. To me that's all part of their rich history.
It's only the scrote who cobbles together bits and pieces then sells it off as real I want to avoid.

The info about dates is useful, thanks again. A true indicator would now suggest that production runs may be a key.
It must be documented somewhere if the likes of War Eagle/Castle Front were being manufactured in decent numbers post war.
Until I feel happy about that I can't see me adding one to my collection.

BP !PUZZLED!

quadibloc
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Re: How many cherries?

Postby quadibloc » Wed Mar 04, 2020 10:08 pm

I see I was mistaken about the cherry on the third reel; it wasn't introduced with the first series of post-war Jennings machines. I will keep looking to see if I can pin it down.


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