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Re: Alfred Clement - Treble Pools

Postby coin-op » Thu Feb 03, 2011 3:28 pm

PennyMachines wrote: What do you mean by "a non-Domino mechanism"?
I've always assumed that there was one standard mechanism found in Domino machines and that the mechanism which seems to be found in the 'squat' Roll out the barrel was merely a design along those lines made by Brenner. But I may be wrong (that happens quite a lot :!?!: ).

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JC
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Re: Alfred Clement - Treble Pools

Postby JC » Thu Feb 03, 2011 6:16 pm

Come, come girls - no fighting please! I think there are probably several variations of mechs on these Roll Out the Barrel machines. A couple I have have seen in the past certainly didn't appear to be ex Domino - the mechs looked like they'd been cobbled together out of old lawn mower parts.

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Re: Alfred Clement - Treble Pools

Postby coin-op » Thu Feb 03, 2011 7:31 pm

I can only recall seeing two types of mechanism in machines called Roll out the barrel; one being what I’d call the ‘standard’ Domino mechanism, the other being what you disparagingly refer to as a lawnmower spin-off (shame on you!). Lots of the Roll out the barrels appear to be cased in various sorts of Heath Robinson boxy type cabinets and these always seem to have a ‘standard’ Domino mechanism. These machines seem to be just straight cannibalising of Domino machine mechanisms. However, the version of the Roll out the barrel pictured above seems to have not only a different mechanism to that which I’ve associated with Domino machines, but also has what I’d consider to be a proper, purpose build and designed cabinet… so I’ve always thought of these machines as ‘real’ Roll out the Barrels (i.e. a machine in its own right rather than a conversion).

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Re: Alfred Clement - Treble Pools

Postby pennymachines » Thu Feb 03, 2011 9:54 pm

JC wrote:Come, come girls - no fighting please!
We only do it so we can make up afterwards !!LOVERS!!
Any components (or evidence of removed components) associated with the original animated manikins, like the spindle at the lower front of the mech, would settle the question. Unfortunately, the picture's too small to help.

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Re: Alfred Clement - Treble Pools

Postby pennymachines » Wed Feb 09, 2011 1:49 pm

Another footnote on this topic - I notice the little squat Roll Out the Barrel pictured in Baudot's Arcadia: Slot Machines of Europe & America is attributed to the Original Machine Manufacturers (John and Bernard Brenner's company) and is dated 1940. Arcades & Slot Machines also lists it under the same date and company, citing the World's Fair, 13th April 1940.

I've seen several straight Domino to Barrel conversions in the original tall cases and as mentioned Oliver Whales supplied Roll Out the Barrel reel strips.

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Re: Alfred Clement - Treble Pools

Postby treefrog » Mon Jun 04, 2012 9:59 am

A Roll out the Barrel in the States, asking the money and shipping on top perhaps only for the keen, still nice machine and the dark patina and marks around the actuator certainly adds to the look. A small repair on the left side looks to have occurred in the past, also the actuator looks to be made of perhaps Bakelite unlike others being metal.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/310403667310? ... 2666wt_952
barrel1.jpg
barrel2.jpg
barrel3.jpg

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Domino / Lucky Dice / Le Juge de Paix

Postby paulbohlmann » Mon Jul 23, 2012 2:32 pm

Topic merged - Site Admin.

Hi,
I would like to start to "talk about slots" and bring more light into another "Saxony mystery"...
The "Domino" or often called "Lucky Dice"
(I saw a few different discussions here, but I think it's better to start a new one –
we Germans need order & structure).
In Germany this is a really rare machine, The last one was sold on ebay in 2008 for 4900,- Euros
(English version, with 12 times win). I guess there are much more machines in the UK and in France.

Looks like there were different versions and in addition modifications/conversions (Roll Out The Barrel etc.)
There are models with wheels out of wood, and models with reels out of metal.
There seems to be different machines as I found artworks with different spacings (wheelwindow).
21-18,5-21-18,5-21 & 22-26-22-26-22 (w-s-w-s-w / in cm)

There exist two copies of ads:
One with the smaller knob, a simpler award-plan and a pump instead of a clock.
Offered in three versions:
Version A - self-filling - for every "1" and "6" one coin (max 3)
Version B - tubes for token - for every "1" and "6" one token (max 3)
Version C - other combinations & higher wins
23x19x8 inch / 64 x 46 x 20 cm / 18,5 Kg
Somewhere I read that this ad is from 1912

The other one (1928 ?) is with the bigger knob (the winder) ,
a clock and the award-plan for up to 12 times winning. 24x19x8 inch / 60 x 48 x 20 cm

In the literature you find different informations:
Les Machines a Sous - Jean Lemaitre (149) Le Juge de Paix - Jentzsch&Meerz 1912
Alte Münzautomaten (132) Lucky Dice Jentzsch&Meerz 1934
Wenn der Groschen fällt (202) Lucky Dice - Jentzsch und Meerz 1927
Arcadia (85) Domino Bignell (France) 1921 (comment: the automatic magazine dez.1926 says invented by R.C.Bignell)
Automatic Pleasures Costa (208) Domino Jentzsch & Meerz 1928 version (regarding to the ad with the clock)
Antique Slotmachines P.Bach (39) ad Domino 1929 Keystone Nov. (dealer) 1929

In my machine I found that a lot of parts were marked with “J&M” & a sparepart number,
that is really typical for the early Jentzsch & Meerz machines.
I could not find a note regarding to the Domino in the journal “Der Automat” from 1927 to 1938,
and regarding to the Law the Domino could not have been sold in these years in Germany,
as it clearly was a gambling machine without skill (and those were forbidden).
There is another Domino (without Artwork) with wheelstoppers,
this could have been a version for the German market (but I also could not find a note or ad…)

So, after all I forgot my questions…
I will add some pictures (partly from the Internet, sorry when not OK) and stuff,
and be happy If anyone has more infos….

What is original what not ?, who invented ? , is it called "Lucky Dice" because the award plan says ?...

Cheers Marco
domino teil.jpg
ad antique slotmachines p.Bach Domino 1929.jpg
domino 2 version.jpg
domino 2 version.jpg (41.68 KiB) Viewed 3035 times
different dominos.jpg

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Re: Domino / Lucky Dice / Le Juge de Paix

Postby gameswat » Mon Jul 23, 2012 4:15 pm

Marco, I've seen a number of these in collections particularly in the US and have had the chance to buy quite a few over the years, but never have. Probably seen at least 15 examples of major conversions by UK operators into Roll out the Barrel, Soccer themed versions, most with new streamlined cases. And also seen approx 12 originals but except for one, every time the figures have been messed with or missing which to me is a major part of the value. They must've been very delicate or maybe jammed the mech from working so were removed in so many cases? At a distance the complete looking versions appeared good, but close up they have all had rather crude figures re-added more recently, but just photocopies. I did come across a stash with at least 5 x unrestored examples with only one almost complete to use as a template for the others. But the owner would only sell them as a group and had paid much money for them in the late '70s in the US. And the thought of all that cash and repetitive labour to sell off the lesser machines just to get the nice example was well beyond my attention span!

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Re: Domino / Lucky Dice / Le Juge de Paix

Postby pennymachines » Fri Jul 27, 2012 4:58 pm

Hi Marco, I think you summed up almost everything that is known about the Lucky Dice in your post. I can only add my own observations.

The Lucky Dice has a very cosmopolitan background: invented by an Englishman (Edward Charles Bignell), who was based in France (9, Boulevard du Temple, Paris) but manufactured in Germany (by Jentzsch und Meerz of Leipzig). Bignell was behind some very fine (and desirable) wall machines. As early as 1904 he worked with George Haydon (of Haydon & Urry fame) on an automatic coin payout apparatus (Pat FRD335226), in 1911 with Joseph Soukhostavsky on the "Courses de Longchamp" horse race roulette (Pat FR424379) and in 1929 on "Tivoli Billiards" (Pat GB332881). It seems likely that the first versions of his dice game were made in France and that Bignell then took his design to the famous German manufacturer in order to ramp up production for the UK and American market. The few French examples look early - with the simpler, single payout slides and wooden reels. Perhaps the 1927-8 date was when J&M started to produce them and earlier examples are French made?
9-blvd-de-temple.jpg
9, Boulevard du Temple
The Lucky Dice is certainly less rare in the UK, but almost always sans figures and with later graphics. Of those in my mosaic below, only one has survived unmolested (second from top, left) and I think that one's in Germany. Several were converted back in the 1980s using photocopied artwork which reproduces a distinctive stain across the top of the background (marked in red in the pic). Colour photocopying was not as good then as it is today and they lack the fine detail of the originals. In the 1990s a hand painted copy of the artwork was made and photographic prints of this were used to convert back a few more. This artwork was more vibrant than the earlier photocopies but the artist also reproduced the top stain. These revamped-revamps often lack the little playing card corner spandrels, fancy brass decorative bottom trim and the linkages to animate the figures. These linkages are robust but passive - I doubt they would foul the main mechanism, as Gameswat suggested. I think it's more likely the overt gambling theme was a problem and perhaps the Edwardian gents began to look a little old fashioned for modern tastes.
stain.jpg
Reproduced staining
stain.jpg (10.15 KiB) Viewed 2933 times
The reels had to be spaced further apart on the later, higher payout version (paying 2D on Ones and 4D on Sixes), to make room for the extra payout detecting levers. The three payout tubes had two coin slides below them, each of which was the thickness of two pennies. This meant that the reels no longer aligned properly with the apertures originally drawn on the artwork. To overcome this, a brass plate with three suitably spaced openings was pinned over the top of the picture. The heavier mechanism also required the larger cranking handle to operate it.

As for what to call the game, it doesn't really have an official English name because, as you said, although it was made in Germany, it wasn't sold there. There's no name on the main graphic and the instruction card often just shows the payouts. Although the American distributor, Keystone Manufacturing Co. of Philadelphia called it "Domino" in their advert, that doesn't make sense, because the game being played is clearly dice. But I think it may have been Keystone who christened it "Lucky Dice", because the payout card they produced had that name on it. Besides, the London Automatic Machine Co. (originally Handan-Ni) was already marketing a game called "Domino".
2dominoes.jpg
Handan-Ni Domino
Many years ago, I "reclaimed" one of these games (top left of mosaic, below). It had no artwork or instructions, so I made up a card using Letraset, based on the machine in Jean Claude Baudot's Arcadia book. I used the name "Domino" because that's what I'd been told it was called! Copies of this card have been used by others.
domino-instruct.jpg
domino-instruct.jpg (7.99 KiB) Viewed 2933 times
Maybe one of our French visitors could explain why they called it "Le Juge de Paix" (Justice of the Peace).

I've not found any versions with skill stops, so I think, as you surmised Marco, these must have been for German consumption. "The Mexiko" (bottom right of mosaic) is in Berlin.
dominos.jpg

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Re: Domino / Lucky Dice / Le Juge de Paix

Postby paulbohlmann » Fri Jul 27, 2012 6:55 pm

Thank you both!
A few new parts of the puzzle...

I guess Mr.Bignell must have loved the French way of living?
Otherwise there should be three hooligans with each a glass of Guinness on the artwork.

!!CHEERS!!
"The Mexiko" (bottom right of mosaic) is in Berlin.
There is also one here in my office,
but the Mexiko was built by "Fr. West Automatenbau" Leipzig in 1932. I compared both -
doesn't fit, there is a slightly different technic and also the wheels have a other diameter (bigger).
The maximal payout is 14 times.
Pictures attached...

Regards Marco.
mexiko innen .jpg
mexiko .jpg
Mexiko West.jpg
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