Roto-Pool, Roto-Fruit, Rotolite, Electrodart, Bingola, etc.

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junior
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Re: Roto-Pool, Roto-Fruit, Rotolite, Electrodart, Bingola, e

Post by junior »

On the bimetallic strip how do I know if the heater wire is ok?
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slotalot
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Re: Roto-Pool, Roto-Fruit, Rotolite, Electrodart, Bingola, e

Post by slotalot »

junior wrote:On the bimetallic strip how do I know if the heater wire is ok?
If you remember we did an ohms test and you reported back saying it was reading 50 ohms across terminals "A" & "C" with one of the bell wires disconnected, which would indicate that the heater wire is ok ??

Basically what happens on a win position is:-
Power (win signal) comes out of the right hand uniselectors and tries to find the easiest route (resistance wise)to the neutral line, now if the contact on the bi metallic strip is closed, then the power will flow through this contact and through the bell in series with the heater wire, at this point the heater wire will start to get hot making the bi metallic strip bend opening the contact on the bi metallic strip and breaking the circuit, the power will then take the next best route to neutral, this will be through the r/h/ contact on the pay out unit and the coil on relay 3, now because the coil on relay 3 is using up most of the power the bell will stop ringing, though it will be still making up part of the circuit, at the same time the normally open contacts on relay 3 will close, the pay out solenoid will pull in and deliver a coin, and at the same time the r/h uniselectors will step forward one position, if more than one coin is to be paid out the above sequence will happen again & again until the r/h uniselectors stops sending out a win signal. everything will then reset waiting for the next win signal.. :D
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Re: Roto-Pool, Roto-Fruit, Rotolite, Electrodart, Bingola, e

Post by junior »

The wiring is going tfrom payout slide to relay 3 as grey then to middle of relay 3 as grey and from front of relay 3 as white back to left hand contact on payout slide and there are 2 reds going to another contact
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slotalot
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Re: Roto-Pool, Roto-Fruit, Rotolite, Electrodart, Bingola, e

Post by slotalot »

junior wrote:The wiring is going tfrom payout slide to relay 3 as grey then to middle of relay 3 as grey and from front of relay 3 as white back to left hand contact on payout slide and there are 2 reds going to another contact
Yep, That part is correct !!YIPPEE!!

So from what you have said so far the wiring on the pay out section would seem to be OK as per the drawing I did for you, all be it some of the wires have different colours to what I would have expected them to be, but things like that did happen back in the 50s as there were no real standards to work to then.

So... the only thing that is stopping the bell from ringing and causing a small delay on the pay out is :-
The contact on the bi metallic strip NOT being normally closed and making a good contact dirtdog
Double check the contact on the bi metallic strip and make sure it is clean and the 2 contact points are touching together, use the small adjusting screw to LIGHTLY push the top contact down so it touches the contact on the bi metallic strip, but don't over tighten it..
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Re: Roto-Pool, Roto-Fruit, Rotolite, Electrodart, Bingola, e

Post by junior »

I have just put pennies through and won ,nothing happens so I pushed down top of relay 3 and it paid out .
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Re: Roto-Pool, Roto-Fruit, Rotolite, Electrodart, Bingola, e

Post by junior »

Sprayed contact cleaner on contacts.put about 30 coins through won 4 times but arrow is not stopping on win at all but beside on miss.I live I an upstairs flat it could be interesting to see if it flies.HELP
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slotalot
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Re: Roto-Pool, Roto-Fruit, Rotolite, Electrodart, Bingola, e

Post by slotalot »

junior wrote:I have just put pennies through and won ,nothing happens so I pushed down top of relay 3 and it paid out .
OK, if it didn't pay out in the circumstances you describe above then the r/h switch on the pay out slide was not closed at the time of that pay out.
I think we are starting to chase ghosts now :!:
All I can do is come back to the point that the R/H and L/H switches on the pay out slide, and the contact on the BI-METALIC strip must be clean and in a closed state at rest to make R3 operate and pay out the coins.
( by at rest I mean when you put a penny into the machine)
If any of these 3 contacts are not closed at rest then the pay out circuit will not work correctly.
Can I ask how far from Halifax you live?? could you get the machine to me??
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Re: Roto-Pool, Roto-Fruit, Rotolite, Electrodart, Bingola, e

Post by slotalot »

junior wrote:Sprayed contact cleaner on contacts.put about 30 coins through won 4 times but arrow is not stopping on win at all but beside on miss.I live I an upstairs flat it could be interesting to see if it flies.HELP
Everything happens so fast that you don't see the arrow stopping on the win position before it steps on to the next position along as it pays out a coin, this is why we have the delay circuit fitted, and it is the delay circuit that is not working, everything else would seem to be working OK. :cool:
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Roto Pool Mechanism Hit and Miss!!!

Post by slotsoffun »

Topic moved & merged - Site Admin.

Just picked up what looks like the contents of a RotoPool machine, it's only the mechanism and no cabinet. I've screwed everything temporarily to a chipboard so I could test it. Powered on, tripped the coin switch and the right hand selector just kept spinning and clicking. Turned power off. When I try again, it does not work too good... Powered on, tripped switch, press the button to play, solenoids click, and every now and then the right selector does a few clicks then stops.. Im guessing the selectors are not making good contact. If I hold the button in too long and the selector does not spin then some smoke comes from one of the cut out overloads.

Any ideas? and is it possible to take apart those UniSelectors??
thanks
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Re: Roto Pool Mechanism Hit and Miss!!!

Post by slotsoffun »

OK so far so good. I've got the whole thing working. However, just a couple of questions if anyone has the answers, When it pays out the bell does not ring? I downloaded the RotoPool manual from here, but still cannot work out why. It works if I apply power directly!

Also, can the wipers on the uniselector be adjusted, as sometimes it lights up 4 bulbs in a row instead of 3, so I'm guessing the wiper contact is touching more than one tab??? Or is there another reason.

Thanks
(the manual was great help, thanks to whoever wrote this!)
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Re: Roto-Pool, Roto-Fruit, Rotolite, Electrodart, Bingola, e

Post by slotsoffun »

Slotalot, this has been a fascinating read, enjoyed the step by step diagnosis. Helped my machine, shame it ended in mid-flight and we never found out if Junior got his bell to work??? Or did it end up getting thrown out the window!!!!
:lol:
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Re: Roto-Pool, Roto-Fruit, Rotolite, Electrodart, Bingola, e

Post by junior »

Hi,
I have not got the bell to work yet. I think I will take said pain in the arse on a road trip this spring or summer to see where I'm going wrong, so look out all you clever people.
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operator bell
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Re: Roto Pool Mechanism Hit and Miss!!!

Post by operator bell »

Here's a useful bit of bumf on uniselectors. It gives a little bit of advice on adjusting the beasts. One thing it doesn't warn you is that you can detach the contact bank from the mechanism completely, and it's a pain in the a$$ to put it back again, so don't do that. You probably have a uniselector with bridging wipers, if it sometimes lights 4 lamps. You should be able to adjust it.

uniselectors.pdf
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slotsoffun
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Re: Roto Pool Mechanism Hit and Miss!!!

Post by slotsoffun »

Thanks for the link. Found the Uniselector guide very useful and managed to adjust the lights correctly. Now it's just the bell problem not ringing!

However.....Does anyone here own a roto-type machine? the payout slide must be the most un-usual design I've ever seen. When you look down the coin tube you'll see that the slide covers only half the hole. Coins appear to perch precariously on this.. I find it hard to understand such a different method used compared to 95% of all slide payout systems. It also has problems if there are only 1 or 2 coins remaining in the tube!
Is this how other Roto machines payout, and what's your thoughts on this?
Top view of coin payout tube
Top view of coin payout tube


View from beneath
View from beneath


Side view
Side view

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slotalot
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Re: Roto Pool Mechanism Hit and Miss!!!

Post by slotalot »

The coin payout tube/slide looks fine and just how it should be, the weight of the coins keeps the stack from tipping.
As to the bell not ringing?? the problem will be with the thermal relay, if as you say you have has it smoking it will most likely have destroyed the heater coil, this is a common problem with this range of machines. :!?!: there is a second thermal relay that cuts out if the start/stop button gets stuck or held in for long periods, you could try swapping the 2 relays over, as the one on the start/stop button is not needed so much for home use.. :D
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Re: Roto Pool Mechanism Hit and Miss!!!

Post by slotsoffun »

thanks. When I get a win, the bell now sounds, but will not stop, but if I use a screwdriver to break the contact on the 1st thermal relay, the payout relay kicks in and pays out. So Im guessing your right and the thermal bi metal strip is not working and causing the bell not to stop! I will try and swap.

Do you know if its possible to replace these cut-outs with a modern electronic equivalent?
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operator bell
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Re: Roto Pool Mechanism Hit and Miss!!!

Post by operator bell »

You can replace the start side timer with a time delay relay, IF you can find any that work on 50VDC. Generally they work on 12-24V DC or 110-220 AC. It won't work for the bell side, which needs a delay on the make AND the break. The moment the slide contacts cut off the payout relay, the delay relay will reset and short the payout relay out again. You could make it work but it would need quite a bit of rewiring. There really is no convenient substitute for those little bi-metals.

If you can live without the bell, the game works fine with neither time delay in circuit.

<edit> I just had a D'OH moment. The function of the bi-metals is exactly the same as a PTC THERMISTOR. You power it up, it heats up, it opens the circuit. Remove power, it cools down, it makes the circuit again. With appropriate thermal time delays.
PTC.jpg
PTC.jpg (9.09 KiB) Viewed 4743 times

If we can find PTCs that work in this circuit in place of the unobtainable bi-metals, we can bring new life to very many of these games. In order to select one, we need to know the resistance of the circuit it's in. Will somebody please measure the coil resistance of the Start Relay R5? I expect it to be about 2000 ohms, the most common resistance for PO type 3000 relays. Also we need the coil resistance of Payout Relay R3, and the resistance of the Bell.
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Re: Roto Pool Mechanism Hit and Miss!!!

Post by slotsoffun »

Magic! Maybe you've solved the problem with these new modern delay things! Although I have the test metre and the machine, I've absolutely no idea how to take those measurements you want... I'm hoping another member will chip in here with the ratings.

Thanks for shedding some light on the problems.
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slotalot
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Re: Roto Pool Mechanism Hit and Miss!!!

Post by slotalot »

Just to add more fog to the mix :!:
I have worked on a few of this type of machine, I have found that the components in the control circuit can vary from machine to machine, ie: the coil resistance on one machine may not be the same as on another, or the type of uniselectors may differ,this is because the machines were built from surplus GPO stock and would depend on what was available at the time, also Jamieson's wound their own transformers at this time, and in some cases transformers would be made to "match" the relay coils being used. :dammit:
So my point is this, any resistance/voltage measurements will need to be taken from your machine alone as it might differ from an other machine, if you see what I mean !PUZZLED!
Roll on British Standards...... /\UK/\
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operator bell
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Re: Roto Pool Mechanism Hit and Miss!!!

Post by operator bell »

I think it probably wouldn't work anyway. The PTC would have to go where the switch contact is on the schematic, in series with the relay coil, where it would be limited to the relay current - about 20mA for a typical 2k relay. A PCT that will switch at such low current has about a 3k cold resistance, too high for the relay to operate. For a PTC with a sensible resistance, below about 500 ohms, the trip current is way higher. Even the bi-metals have that problem, and if you look at the schematic in the manual, you see the heating coil on the bi-metal is in parallel with the relay, not in series.

What might work is to simulate this arrangement, using a PTC as the series switch but heating it by fixing a big fat resistor in contact with it to replace the bi-metal heating coil.
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