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Badpenny wrote:The Bumper was a fortnight ago in a Table Top Sale, Park Hall Road Walsall.

Dam - you got one as well BP.............. I guess that lowers the value of my three then

No Arrgee I didn't buy it, I was the vendor.
No point in turning down thirty quid at today's fuel prices.

youngerap wrote:I am not at all concerned about upsetting a 'serious' collector. Such a person should know the true value of this machine and I would expect them to a) expect competition at the auction and b) be prepared to pay for it.

Ah, but there's the rub (apologies again to Willy S.) What do you suppose is the "true value"? I'm a serious collector (seriously addicted anyway), and I don't know. Imagine you'd kept mum, and competition was limited to the handful of collectors, like yourself, who succeeded in finding these (which, after all, were advertised and pictured online). I've no doubt the vendor would still be chuffed to bits at the prices, but how chuffed would the winning bidders be? Would they slink off, racked with guilt, knowing in their hearts they'd failed to pay the "true value"?

Imagine instead, all collectors posted all desirable machines for sale on this forum (great for website visitor stats, but somehow I can't see it happening). Then everyone would monitor the site and every machine would go directly to the highest bidder. "True value" would mean "more than all but one collector in the world is prepared to pay" and no amount of diligent research, knowledge, legwork or enthusiasm would make you a "serious collector", unless you were prepared (or could afford) to outbid all other collectors for every machine you bought. Whenever a really desirable machine surfaced, it would go directly to one of a handful of the wealthiest collectors in the world.

This I submit is the sort of jealous, secretive, cloak and dagger perspective to which you too will succumb, if you become as hard-bitten as I am.

treefrog wrote:Still no offers of knowledge for the Billiards Handan Ni machine. Anyone seen one before? I went through the patents on this site and found more than 6 Billiards related machines, none Handan and none similar to this.

The nearest I can find is Handan-Ni's Seven Arches of 1919 pictured in Chapter 7, Billiards And Pin Bagatelle of Nic Costa's Automatic Pleasures. This chapter is quite informative on the original coin-operated pinballs, some half a century before the great pinball craze of Depression America. He describes how "Bagatelle had, almost since its inception, played second fiddle to the mighty Billiards" and much early design impetus was directed at automating Billiards. The earliest he cites is German Billiards patented in 1893 by American, Charles Young. Also described and pictured is Haydon & Urry's Automatic Billiards of 1897. Bagatelle came to predominate because it was better suited to miniaturisation.

My feelings are similar to PM. I am not wealthy, and have limited funds available. The chance to buy a machine that is off the radar so to speak gives ordinary collectors like myself, and I suspect, most of this forum's members, the chance to obtain nice machines at an affordable price. There are a few very wealthy collectors who will always outbid the ordinary "man in the street".
For this reason, I would suggest that we keep things to ourselves until after the auction has taken place.
A thousand pounds, for example, is still a great deal of money to me, and would require a lot of soul searching to justify spending such an amount. I have collected for about 20 years, and have driven home from an auction on more than one occasion with a prized machine in the boot, and a sick feeling in my stomach at having paid too much!
Just try telling one of your friends how much you paid for a wormed wooden box with a few knobs on it and some rusty metal work inside, and you will soon find out that the rest of society think we are mad!
What is its true value??? What someone is willing to pay.

bryans fan wrote:What is its true value??? What someone is willing to pay

What is 'value'

Some people will spend the equivalent cost each year of a damn good allwin or bandit on a season ticket just to sit on a cold windy Premier league terrace watching 22 blokes kick a ball around, and at the end of the season what do they have? Others will spend at least that per year on booze and fags - so it's horses for courses, as they say.

If I pick up a machine at a 'snip' then that's great, but if I really want a machine and it's a high cost I don't think it's not worth the value, I think how much do I want it, then make a decision based upon 'can I afford it'. For me Value does not enter into the equation, it's such a nebulous word anyway.

Good grief! I started this by thinking these were interesting machines! My thanks to those who have contributed (politely, too!) and have opened my eyes to an aspect of this hobby that had never occurred to me.

I think I shall take Bryans Fan's advice and not comment on the contents of active auctions in future. Probably safer that way.....

youngerap wrote:I think I shall take Bryans Fan's advice and not comment on the contents of active auctions in future. Probably safer that way.....

....and cheaper! Probably won't sink in fully until you're well and truly addicted and this happens to something you plan to bid on and can't live without.

I think we should have a sticky on Announce advising everyone when they first come here about topics which crop up time and time again and add this one to it: -
We could cover........
* I have a machine to sell but can't be bothered to comply with The Market rules so am going to pretend to merely ask for a valuation.
* I've just bought my first bandit and nothing works, does it need more grease?
* Why do Ebay keep removing my auction for a gambling bandit machine?
* How do I post a picture/video/link
* What do you mean it's illegal to sell a slot machine?
* Is it ok to tell everyone of something interesting I've stumbled upon for sale?

What others can you think of? There must be more that the majority seem to fall foul of.

BP

I've found a machine that I'm thinking of buying; what is it worth? (And variations on the theme: What is it worth??)

Looks like youngerap
As been bullied in to deleting the
Links to the machine

Well I think you done the right thing
Advertising them here
And the wrong thing deleting them

You are obviously a new collector
And prob have a few allwins and bandits
But see something online that probably isn't going
To fit in your collection,which there is nothing wrong with that
I done the same when I started,,so what's wrong in sharing info
On a site that you visit everyday,,
You probably didnt want any of us to mis out

So you put it here,,well keep up the good work son

And if your looking for a certain machine for your
Collection
Drop me a line,I may just be getting rid of one

I agree with Jingle's comments. Youngerap wasn't asked to remove the links by me or the mods and I hope he doesn't feel got at. He was very generous to share the information with us. Regrettably, I doubt that Jingle or I will be following his public spirited example.

John T. Peterson wrote:I've found a machine that I'm thinking of buying; what is it worth? (And variations on the theme: What is it worth??)

Yup that's an obvious one, and my favourite one from that genre consists of a small fuzzy photo of the front of a machine and the question .....
Is this worth buying, is anything missing?

Nah, best is: vague description with no photos at all!

Thank you for your kind words, Jingles.

Please be assured that this thread has in no way intimidated me and neither was I requested to remove the links. Quite the opposite in fact as the contributions have been remarkably polite given that I blurted out to the world the existence of these auction Lots and quite possibly denied one of us the chance to purchase a rarity at a price we can afford.

This simply had not occurred to me, so it was a feeling of disappointment that led me to remove the links.

I created this topic purely because I was excited at seeing these machines and thought that others would also find them interesting. It seems I still have a bit to learn about hobby etiquette - particularly where auctions are concerned. Online auctions are in the public domain and I do not feel it inappropriate to discuss any interesting items on this forum, but I think my approach will be to either wait for the auction to end or to simply refrain from including auction links in any future posts.

As I stated at the beginning of the thread, we are all deluded if we believe lots like this are not seen by large numbers of people, as they are clearly named and on a large search engine, this not being the only one.... The real challenge is when machines are miss-described, which can happen..... There you can be in a limited audience.... It would be funny if the floor standing Watling turns out to be a glorified drinks cabinet....

Having said all this, it is nice to see some rare machine come to the open market, even if these will be way beyond the average mortal's pocket..... I think I may just watch online on these ones as diesel is expensive.....

Internet coming to auction houses has killed the fun of the hunt and not just in our hobby, ask any antiques trader or serious collector. Gone are the days of getting that rare bargain.... It is only good for the seller and the auctioneers... Alas, so many people seem to take crazy risks bidding blind, which we all have done. At least we get to see them here, I guess, which would not happen if not online.

Tom is spot on there.
I recall the two of us standing in an auction house in Lincoln about 9 months ago. Watching rotten and partly cased Günter Wolff machines and Jubilee empty cases being sold to internet bidders for hundreds.

J

Could auction dates, locations etc. be put on the calendar? I know there are discussions surrounding what should or should not be disclosed but surely those responsible for the website should promote auctions of interest?

Not for me of course my Lincolnshire friends.

And discuss.................

There is nothing to stop us as individuals from raising auction items of interest, but I do not believe the owner(s) of this site have any responsibility at all for the provision of such information. I am just grateful that we have such an excellent website available to us. Plus, it is free! I do not know of any other site to which one could go for the advice, information and humour (some of which I do not readily understand - no names mentioned, Mr BP) that is made so freely available on this site by so many expert contributors. Long may it continue.

I would like to 2nd the comment left by "Cheeky". Well said that man!
I won't be going to the Lincolnshire auction. Remember a few years ago a Jennings Club Chief in a console came up for sale at auction with, I believe, an estimate of £400? I went to that auction. As soon as that lot came up for offer, the auctioneer said there had been a lot of interest in the item and had 4 live phone bidders waiting to get the bidding started. The opening bid was £800 and quickly went to about £1350 and sold. I did not get a chance to even raise my card and get a bid in! It was not worth the £1350 someone paid for it in my opinion, and I went home disappointed as usual. I got a feeling that the the "Big Six" which I think is a Watling machine, may fetch a big sum of money. Even with a lot of its innards missing....after all, when was the last time you see one come up for sale over here????

We do promote auctions of interest.
You'll always see the planned auctions supporting our hobby listed there. So your request puzzles me.
Your comment surely those responsible for the website should promote auctions of interest?
.......makes me wonder if what you're suggesting is we also list auctions such as the one that started this thread?

If so, that would be logistically a nightmare.
These are not slot machine auctions, they are provincial house clearance auctions dealing with low to medium value items that are entered quite randomly.
If you pay to subscribe to one of the websites that list "Local Auctions", and I don't; then you would see that in a month there may be as few as half a dozen machines offered in the whole of Europe.
The majority of them are poorly described or photographed and grossly undervalued in the estimate in order to attract interest from Internet Bidders most of whom seem to be perfectly happy to bid blind. I'll never be optimistic bidding against those people.

These auction catalogues are printed as close to ten or even seven days before they occur.
So, you tell me, is it feasible or even worth doing, when you can easily do it yourself.

As it is, we are all fishing out of the same pool regarding those advertised on this site, eBay, the Coventry Auction and the machines that pop up in the middle of the Elephant House auctions amidst random other lots.

Now it seems you want us to do your searching of small time local auctions in Europe for you?
Personally the hunt (no pun intended) and the chase are as big a part of the purchase as acquiring the item, for me.

All you need to do to find them yourself is to strap on your computer and find your way around Google, after a bit of effort and some embarrassing mistakes over the interpretation of the word "slot" you'll get there.

Job Jobbed!

BP