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A letter to eBay UK?

Posted: Tue Dec 17, 2013 9:26 am
by jimmy55
Following on from the Mills thread ...auctiongate, and numerous other discussions on the subject.
Would it be a good idea to send a mass letter to eBay UK asking for clarification .....it may not work but may raise the issue in their mind if enough people write ....just a discussion point. I hope I have the CEO names right but that can be checked I am sure.

Dear Ms Gilmartin
I am writing to you as one of a group of collectors in the hope of clarifying the situation regarding antique and collectable fruit machines and one arm bandits and their current treatment under eBays listing policies.
The machines in question are in general mechanical and operating on pre decimal coinage and therefore purely of interest within a collection or a collectors home. Quite often the machines are of significant value and highly sought after and would offer eBay UK significant revenue when sold.
At the moment listings of these machines are routinely terminated by eBay and rarely remain listed for a full sale period. Strangely more modern electronic fruit machines seem to be allowed to run their full course even when sold by individuals who do not hold Gambling Commission Licenses.
I would be grateful if you could clarify why there is this difference in treatment and whether listings are cancelled automatically ( robot ) or after human intervention following a report to eBay UK by an individual as there is clearly a discrepancy between the treatment of the two groups.
Discussions are underway currently between representatives of our hobby and the Gambling Commission who have indicated a desire to free these collectable machines from the bureaucracy which attaches to bona fide gaming machine.
We are hoping that you can provide clarification of why eBay is treating collectable machines in this way.
Yours ...........

Re: a letter to eBay UK?

Posted: Tue Dec 17, 2013 10:56 am
by coin-op
Although an interesting idea and it may clarify quite why ebay remove items, apparently with a less than even handed approach, the fact will remain that without a licence, the sale of machines is technically within the scope of current legislation. Therefore, whether ebay itself picks up on, or treats differently older machines rather than more modern , commercially viable machines, or someone is purposely notifying ebay due to their own agenda, I do not see that ebay will enact a policy which sees it knowingly facilitate the sale of older machines outside the ambit of existing legislation. So, you might establish why it happens, but it seems to me that it will not avoid it happening.

Re: a letter to eBay UK?

Posted: Tue Dec 17, 2013 11:12 am
by jimmy55
If eBay are happily ignoring the law for later machines and we can get to the root cause of the discrepancy, then in theory it should be equal treatment for all machines. All I would hope to clarify is if an individual is the cause of the problem and bring it to the attention of senior management at eBay, who would hopefully see he has an agenda for his actions.( If he exists )

Re: a letter to eBay UK?

Posted: Tue Dec 17, 2013 11:37 am
by aristomatic
A very sensible post coinop. In addition, whilst the law remains as it is, then it's very simple - if you want to sell a machine on ebay, buy a permit, it stays on. Want to sell more than one? Then get 3 permits per 12 months.

I signed the petition, as I don't want to have to apply for permits, but that's what you need to do. I have had a number of listings removed because they breach ebay policy. It's frustrating, but that's the policy and the policy is driven by the law. It is clear from the discussions that took place that nothing is going to change in the near future, ref the law.

So I now have a permit for my next machine. It's a bit of a pain filling in the form and posting it off and it takes a while to come back and it costs £25 a time, but that's the system, as it is, with the law as it stands now, and if I want to list another machine, then I'll just apply for another permit.

There's also this site's November auction & the Elephant House ones too. In addition, the prices realised by the auction houses with online bidding, even with their hefty commissions, seem to currently at least, be as good a route to achieving a strong result, without any permit or feedback issues or indeed without any comeback with regard to working condition or parts missing or worn.

GP

Re: a letter to eBay UK?

Posted: Tue Dec 17, 2013 11:46 am
by coin-op
Thank you aristomatic. I do think that Jimmy 55's proposal is worthy of debate and I'm not looking to shoot it down or appear unduly negative. I had drafted the following reply before your own posting.

What is clear is that ebay do act to remove a fair number of older machines and as I have said, my thoughts are that this is due to the actions of an individual rather than ebay itself. If this is correct, then ebay are not actively monitoring machines, but do have a definite position when confronted with a complaint. I cannot see that ebay will take a stand to refuse to accept a genuine issue raised concerning a possible licence infringement just because the informer seems pro-active. To do so would require ebay to 'switch off' their response team in connection with fundamentally valid issues. Therefore, the possible result of a letter could be that ebay take a firmer view regarding listings of any machines. If ebay itself are positively monitoring older machines and not newer ones, which seems illogical to me, then the result of contacting them would likely be to place newer machines on the same footing as older machines and not to change their approach to older machines. My reasoning for this is set out in my previous post, but to reiterate, is based on the assumption that as a large company, ebay see no merit in operating in conflict with local legislation.

I would add that I am not wanting to appear unduly negative in my comments, but I do think that ebay will act to ensure they are on a firm, legal footing.

Re: A letter to eBay UK?

Posted: Tue Dec 17, 2013 12:19 pm
by marktol
Hi,

I still firmly believe that it's not just machines being reported. Having had many listing violations in the past, I have the following observations:-

depending on the category you use and key words in the title, you may get a prompt coming up when you are creating your listing saying that certain items are prohibited or need a permit etc. These items I believe go into some kind of quarantine before the listing is live and gets reviewed by a real live person somewhere. My rationale for this is:-

they don't show up in the search results for 4-6 hours
items that trigger this process that are legit are left and go live eventually - usually after 4-6 hours
items that breach their policy - machines with no permit number get removed before they ever appear in search results. Nobody could report a machine and have it removed that quickly

When I've listed things that don't get the prompt, they appear in the search results immediately, even if they would breach the policy.

I also think that once you have had a policy breach on your account your listings go under more scrutiny anyway - as the occasional machines that do slip though and complete tend to be from one-timer ebayers who just have the old machine that's sat in the garage forever to clear off.

I agree that it may be worth asking ebay for clarification, however the pessimist in me says - A we will probably never get a decent answer and B - actually it's not likely to change the behavior we see - other than perhaps it may mean 'fruit machines' get removed as well.

Just my thoughts.

Mark

Re: a letter to eBay UK?

Posted: Tue Dec 17, 2013 12:50 pm
by pennymachines
aristomatic wrote:There's also this site's November auction...
I should perhaps point out that although the Coventry auction is promoted and advertised here (as are other slot machine auctions), Pennymachines.co.uk has no financial or organisational involvement with it.

Re: A letter to eBay UK?

Posted: Tue Dec 17, 2013 1:04 pm
by jimmy55
Coin op ....I completely take your point about newer machines being likely victims. I just wonder, and would love to know the reason why, eBay treat them differently, but in reality it will remain one of life's mysteries.

Mark, like you I have always thought it was more of an automatic process than the result of human intervention, but with coppinpr's info.and the lack of consistency in the treatment by ebay, I'm swayed to believe it may be human. Again, if you don't ask the question you won't get an answer but I think the consensus has always been to leave well alone.

Re: A letter to eBay UK?

Posted: Tue Dec 17, 2013 1:41 pm
by aristomatic
jimmy55 wrote:I think the consensus has always been to leave well alone.
Indeed, as ebay may just decide to prohibit slot machines regardless of whether you have a single machine permit or a full licence and that's hardly a promising scenario......

However, then there is always the November vintage amusement auction held in Coventry, that is promoted and advertised here, (along with other slot auctions).
(Error duly noted Mr pennymachines and thank-you for clarifying matter above).

GP

Re: A letter to eBay UK?

Posted: Tue Dec 17, 2013 2:42 pm
by slotalot
Hi !SURRENDER!
For what it is worth, I think that Ebay is just too big and has so many moderators that it largely down to luck :!?!:
When I was at the helm of the good ship Penny Petition, yes the one that sank with all hands xX><Xx
I started putting listings on Ebay asking for people to support our petition by signing it, and to be able to do this I did get permission from one of Ebay's moderators. He/she told me it wasn't a problem, and everything was OK for about 6 to 8 weeks, when the listing got removed. I also got an email telling me that if I posted it again, I could be banned from Ebay. I replied to that mod saying that I had been told it was OK to put the post on Ebay. I was then told that that particular moderator had used bad judgement in telling this was OK, and I was breaking the rules.
So I think a lot of it is just down to what sort of a day that particular moderator is having, and they have to be seen to be doing something for their money. !TAPTAP!

Re: A letter to eBay UK?

Posted: Tue Dec 17, 2013 3:38 pm
by steinslots
I agree with slotalot, in that Ebay has become too commercial for its own good, and for that of collectors. Far too many people are using Ebay sale prices as a guide to the value of collectables.
For example: I have a "cocktail" style pin-table which was made in limited numbers and an even more limited batch were sold in the UK. We are talking 4 or 5 currently in the UK out of 500 or so built. Considering the same machine in the US will fetch $1000 or more, one would presume they would attract a higher asking price? It seems not. When the owner of a well known UK pinball parts distributor queried about buying it for his own collection he said he could only offer me £300 max because that's "what they fetch on Ebay". I don't think the one he was referring to even sold, because it didn't reach the reserve, but this has effectively set the value of my machine to £300.

I've always felt more comfortable with the dedicated slot auctions like those hosted Jerry Chattenton.

Re: A letter to eBay UK?

Posted: Tue Dec 17, 2013 7:22 pm
by margamatix
It seems to me that there are two things which can be taken as a given about the individual who is reporting these machines to ebay.

Firstly, they aren't doing it through altruistic reasons, otherwise they would report all listings of slot machines.They are trying to get specific machines withdrawn from auction because they wish to buy those machines themselves and do not wish to allow the item's value to be determined by open auction but rather to buy the machines themselves for less than the amount they would sell for in open auction.

Secondly, and because of this, all ebay members listing a machine which is subsequently withdrawn by ebay will have received a private message from the same member confidently predicting that it will be withdrawn and offering to buy it outside of ebay.

Therefore, in future, whenever a machine is listed which is likely to be targeted by this individual, I am going to send a message to the seller advising them of what is happening, and asking them to let me know the user name of anybody who has offered to buy it outside ebay "should the machine be withdrawn by ebay". I am sure most potential sellers will be sufficiently pissed off if such does happen to assist with this.

If it does transpire that every potential seller does receive such a message from the same individual, then it's fairly safe to say that the individual concerned is the person reporting these sellers, then we can take it from there.

Re: A letter to eBay UK?

Posted: Tue Dec 17, 2013 8:08 pm
by youngerap
Interesting approach.

What will you do when you have a suspect? Cry "She's a witch" and head for the village pond?

My point is, this could introduce an unpleasant bout of nasty finger pointing and bitterness that will threaten to spoil what, for me at least, has been a hobby blessed with great natured and generous folk.

We had a taste of what could come with an unfounded accusation against someone that I consider to be a friend and I want no part of anything similar in the future.

I like the people I have met through this hobby. Long may that last.

Re: A letter to eBay UK?

Posted: Tue Dec 17, 2013 8:32 pm
by margamatix
It has been a hobby blessed with great natured and generous folk for the 30+ years that I have been involved with it, but now there is a collector who is causing ebay members to have their accounts flagged or suspended in order that he can buy machines at less than market value, and when I find out who it is, with reasonable supporting evidence, I'll be sure to let pennymachines forum members know, and let them know what that evidence is, so they can make their own minds up for themselves.

Or would you rather the situation carried on as it is?

Re: A letter to eBay UK?

Posted: Tue Dec 17, 2013 8:41 pm
by youngerap
I think I would rather not use eBay.

Re: A letter to eBay UK?

Posted: Tue Dec 17, 2013 8:51 pm
by jimmy55
I think we are back to my original point .....is there or isn't there one person? As to motive, that could be any one of a number of reasons and it wouldn't be wise to assume it was just a collector trying to get cheap machines. Only eBay have the answer and it's clear there isn't a desire for a direct approach to them, so it's probably best left there before the chain and padlock come out again. !!ESCAPE!!

Re: A letter to eBay UK?

Posted: Tue Dec 17, 2013 9:52 pm
by coppinpr
My personal belief is that there is a troll targeting all vintage machines on ebay for a specific reason and I believe that reason has nothing to do with getting cheap machines on ebay, in fact I believe it's more about causing a shortage of machines for sale in general and thus increasing the price of machines sold on (if there were any) and more importantly off of the internet.
This would, I'm sure you will agree, make a lot of sense. If ebay has done one thing for sure since it started (and I was one of the first to register on it - related to another hobby), it is that it sets the correct selling value of collectables of all kinds by supply and demand. The other hobby I speak of had values set by a guide book written by just one "expert" before ebay came along and it worked OK. Then Ebay's wide audience started to find these items in their houses and attics and prices changed on a supply and demand basis. Some went up others came down. The same thing happened with slots. Now if you can find a way of gagging ebay, you could get back to causing a demand bigger than the supply and increasing prices.

I also believe we will never know, for sure, who it is.
They have in fact won and we must swallow the pill and carry on.
Less machines from garages and attics will come to light and many old machines may disappear forever, which is what I find saddest, but there is, I suspect nothing we can do about it.

Re: A letter to eBay UK?

Posted: Tue Dec 17, 2013 10:30 pm
by coin-op
jimmy55 wrote: Only eBay have the answer and it's clear there isn't a desire for a direct approach to them, so it's probably best left there before the chain and padlock come out again. !!ESCAPE!!
For my part, and for reasons I have set out above, I see no real mileage in pursuing the matter with ebay. However, that is my personal view and the topic is open for anyone to put forward any view they hold. Regarding your latter comment, I don't really understand it as I do not see anything which warrants it. !PUZZLED!

Re: A letter to eBay UK?

Posted: Tue Dec 17, 2013 11:04 pm
by steinslots
Just a thought, forgive me if I've missed anything here but if the complaints are centred around the sellers not having an appropriate gaming license then maybe the complainant does possess such a license and feels aggrieved that he pays X amount each year whilst others appear to "get away with it"?
I seem to remember an advert in er Steve Hunt's magazine a few years back with a slot machine dealer highlighting their membership of the Gaming Board. Can't remember who though....

Here's another thought - Ebay advises us of the following:
"Do not respond to the sender if this message requests that you complete the transaction outside of eBay. This type of offer is against eBay policy, may be fraudulent, and is not covered by buyer protection programs".

Re: A letter to eBay UK?

Posted: Wed Dec 18, 2013 8:58 pm
by coppinpr
We have over the years made this very point many times, and it adds weight to my above post, however there are ways of making a living out of selling machines without a licence, in the open, which has always gone on with the Commission turning a "blind eye" to this, for want of a better word, loophole in the consistency of the law, so it's not for certain the troll has a licence, just a vested interest.