When is it illegal to sell a slot machine?

[badpenny]

Where's the ambiguity in ............


British Law and Vintage Coin-Operated Machines

A Strict Reading of the Rules

The sale, supply, maintenance and operation of Gaming Machines in Britain is regulated by the Gambling Commission in accordance with the 1968 Gaming Act.

Although you may purchase any number of Gaming Machines, without restriction, in order to sell them, you are legally required to obtain a Section 27 Certificate from the Commission.
The certificate costs £6,605 and, unless revoked, is valid for five years, with a £4,512 renewal fee (2006 prices).

According to the Commission, "a gaming machine should be taken to mean any machine which has a slot or other aperture for the insertion of money or money's worth in the form of cash or tokens and is constructed or adapted for the playing of a game of chance by means of its own mechanism, whether or not it is constructed or adapted to pay or award prizes. A game of chance and skill combined is regarded as a game of chance."

[woody]

Hi! Just passed a law degree by part-time study so know a little (dangerous thing).. What is the geographic coverage of the gaming act do we know? - I could look up but being a bit lazy here. May be we should have the auction in Jersey or Herm Island leaving the machines on the mainland (only kidding)

I suppose small cases would probably end up in a magistrate's court (district judge) whose decisions aren't binding on any other courts. You or the GB would then need to appeal it if you / they lost (assuming you / they had the right and grounds to appeal), before it got higher up the court structure to set a precedent. Expensive business in terms of legal fees. Do we know the level of fines stated in the acts?

Now must go away and swot up to see if any of this infringes on one of the protected rights under the Human Rights Act..

Cheers

Woody

[woody]

Guest

You're completely correct.

Best Wishes

Woody

[JC]

I was away yesterday, and now find that this thread runs to five pages. Much of what has been said seems to cover the same ground, but guest above has perhaps found the solution we need - and it's already written in the act. Clearly, no one could reasonably suggest that a collector will receive any financial gain from playing his own machine. Therefore, by the act's own definition, it is not a gaming machine.
Perhaps the solution then, is merely for anyone selling a machine (as a collectable) to require the buyer to sign a simple declaration stating that the machine will be kept only as a collectable and will not be used for any financial gain?

Although, I'm not sure where this leaves operators of vintage slots.

[badpenny]

That could be an interesting route to explore. I don't think the scrap excuse ever was a goer, decommissioning may be better, but there is no recognized route unlike submarines, weapons etc. Maybe the word I'm struggling for is "deregulated"?

I'm interested in JC's suggestion that a declaration may be the answer, and would like to see common agreement with the Gambling Board as to whether a declaration from a buyer absolves the seller.

Does leave an interesting position for the Vintage operators though.

[markymark]

Couldn't resist a reply, found this whole subject fascinating, if not, confusing and silly (where the law stands!!).

From a total laymans (sorry, lay persons) point of view... Having seen some snippets of the gaming act written here, it states the following:

a gaming machine should be taken to mean any machine which has a slot or other aperture for the insertion of money or money's worth in the form of cash or tokens and is constructed or adapted for the playing of a game of chance by means of its own mechanism, whether or not it is constructed or adapted to pay or award prizes. A game of chance and skill combined is regarded as a game of chance

If the machine has the "apature or slot" removed surely this would revoke the whole issue - Am I being too simplistic here!

The issue about "pay or award prizes" is somewhat vague! How can winning a handful of sixpences be of finanicial gain to me the owner! Same if it paid tokens, I can't "cash" the tokens in myself. I can understand if a friend comes round and i sell him tokens or sixpences, he plays my machine, wins a jackpot and I exchange the latter for current currency cash!!!

As mentioned before, how come they are so strict with slots in terms of laws, for either home use of antique slots or newly built fruit machines. Someone must be over 18 to play a fruit machine which in this country has a jackpot of say £25... yet a school kid of 16 can gamble on scratch or lottery tickets and win a million... where's the logic in that!!!!!!!

Problem with most of these laws is the people that write them, don't fully understand the mechanics of slots.. your average MP probably hasn't a clue that these old machines use old coins that have no value whatsoever!!, or understand the hobby or fascination of these absolute fantastic mechanical inventions... They see it as, a "Fruit Machine" equals Gambling, Bad, Bad, Bad!!!!

I guess we'll all be talking about this issue in another 10 years time.. One thing is for sure.. Glad I live in the UK.. Can you imagine being an avid collector of slots in America only to find your State outlaws ALL slots!!! Pass the tissues... Boo Hoo!

[badpenny]

I agree with the other guest, not this guest, that is the guest that says it's not your interpretation of the word scrap, it's the authorities, interpretation .................

Hang on a minute! Isn't it about time this forum had a rule about how many times an Internet Provider address is allowed to post as GUEST without joining?

The stats show about 500 of them. I'd be surprised if there were that many of us in the UK. These knowledgeable people appear to stumble across the site just as there's an interesting thread going, chuck their two pence worth in, don't join then go.
Of course there's no possibility is there that they are already members and decide to forget to sign in........... in case they want to hide?
Very strange but the stats also show half a dozen or so members with , unique ip addresses identical to many of the "guests" ......... hmmmm!

Come on you knowledgeable, experienced drifters, come in from the cold, join the site, we might want to award you a medal or something for services rendered to the hobby!

Welcome on board
Badpenny (most people by now know I'm Jeremy)

Getting back to the business in hand, I still don't think the word scrap will get us anywhere. It's not our interpretation of a word that matters it's the Crown Prosecution Services'
You can put a scrapped car back on the road, but you can't drive it without tax, mot, insurance or a licence simply because it was once declared scrap.
I still maintain the phrase deregulated due to obsolete mechanism (the coin forms part of the mechansim) may be worth exploring.
However at the end of the day the words used in the act still describe any of our machines.
I wish us all luck with this thorny problem, it's sad not to be reading anything new, we are all busily discussing the same points that were banded around ten years ago. A few stalwart collectors vainly attempted then to promote a change alas to no use. Maybe they simply ran out of steam, I know I'm beginning to.
I'll still watch this thread hoping to read an innovative suggestion that hasn't been tried before, I live in hope but have said all I've learnt on the subject and about The Gambling Commission. Over to you youngsters to show us the way, but don't waste too much of your time exploring the same dead ends as before.
Good Luck

[badpenny]

....... phew that's a relief ....... I wasn't worried about "reds under the bed" more like "narks in the dark"

[coin-op]

is that it

Yup. It would appear that guest's opinions are not welcome anymore.

That's not the case at all. The only unwelcome posts by anyone are those which breach the site guidelines.

[JC]

I think Operator Bell makes a very valid point re. 'it's not about raising revenue.' The Gambling Commision are not tax collectors, nor are they law enforcers. I have always believed they could be our greatest ally - not in changing the law, but in defining what's already written. If collectors of vintage slots could be exempt, it would give the Gambling Commision one less thing to worry about.

[operator bell]

Heh - having gone back and read the rest of this thread, I'm glad I took the trouble to at least think of a name before posting - and I went on to register afterwards.

Perhaps the answer to the legal conundrum is a Private Member's Bill? That's how the laws were relaxed in the USA, when someone's important collection was threatened by California's $500 possession law ($500 fine per machine, per day, I believe). A law quickly passed in California to exempt machines over 25 years old. Of course in the USA anyone can just show up in broad daylight with a briefcase of cash and pay for a law out of pocket - in Britain it may be a bit more difficult, since your pols have at least heard of principles. But I bet with a bit of patience you could find a back-bencher willing to make the play, particularly in the dog days of an unpopular administration when there's nothing else much going on. It would probably pass on the nod.

[badpenny]

Thanks Operator Bell ......... Regarding the law and trying to change it, you have managed to succinctly point out what I have been rambling on about constantly in my various posts on this thread. Yay!!!!!