Circle Skill and variants

American, British, French or German? We want to know about it.
jimmycowman
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Circle Skill and variants

Post by jimmycowman »

Hi all, I'm trying to get this Lucky Circle to work but missing some inside bits (the payout). Has anyone got a photo of the inside of one to help me out? It's not like the one in the Carters book - this one doesn't vend.
Thanks.
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lcky1.jpg
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john t peterson
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Re: Circle Skill and variants

Post by john t peterson »

Jimmy, I don't have this game but looking at your pictures, it appears that a standard allwin payout mechanism might work. You are missing the payout tube and the large vertical arm with attachments that controls the mechanism when a winning shot is made. I cannot see how the ball is released. There is a newer looking metal strip in the middle of the game which might be covering the cut-out for the more traditional ball release "water-wheel" mechanism. If you have any Whales game, take a look at the interior and see if your game does not appear to be identical. By the way, it's a very attractive game and well worth the restoration effort in my opinion. Regards, John Peterson, USA.
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Re: Circle Skill and variants

Post by coin-op »

The ball release mechanism should be inside the back of the machine if it follows the vending version.
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Re: Circle Skill and variants

Post by jimmycowman »

Thanks for replying - the ball release mech is in the back of the machine and works OK. Some time in its life it's been used on free play (part of the instructions are blanked out on the playfield and the coin payout removed). I can recreate the payout somehow, but I just wanted to see a photo of the inside of one before I start. How rare is this machine? How old is it, does anyone know?
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daveslot
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Re: Circle Skill and variants

Post by daveslot »

There was one in Hunt's last auction in excellent condition, I have seen several versions of these, a 3 and 4 cup winner, also a profit sharer. The mechs are quite complex, more bits than an allwin. They are pre-war, not that rare. I think the vending version is the most common.
Cheers, Dave.
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Re: Circle Skill and variants

Post by pennymachines »

Here's a detail of the Circle Profit Sharer payout mech. Not sure it will help much as this 4 cup version with symmetrically placed player controls clearly isn't the same as your machine. Instead of the conventional slide, a claw pushes two coins from the bottom of the hopper. The lower, smaller hopper is the profit-sharer which releases its contents when the platform below it swings out of the way. An arrangement of ratchet, cog and levers (hidden by tinwork) release it every 20th win.

Hopefully your version had a simpler mechanism, otherwise you have quite a job on your hands. The ball feed on the Circle Profit Sharer is also more complex than an allwin. It uses a vertical tube stacked with balls alla Payramid.
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Wall vending machine with rotating pins

Post by Neil »

(Circle Skill topic merged - Site Admin.)

A customer of mine has this neat wall vending machine on old one penny.

Any ideas on manufacturer or age?

I am presuming that if you were successful in rotating the pins to get the ball into one of the cups you won the corresponding cigs or other item behind the 3 glass sections at lower case?

Many thanks, Neil.
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JC
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Circle Skill

Post by JC »

Hello Neil

You have there what is commonly known as a 'Circle Skill' machine. They were manufactured in Germany during the 1920s and 30s. There are several different variations of this machine, and you have the most common. Yours pays out cigarettes, but the rarer version returns the player's coin. There are also versions which have four ball cups, rather than three.
You are quite right in your assumption that the idea of the game is to guide the ball through the pinned disc, into one of the three cups. The corresponding drawer is then released, in order that the player may obtain his prize.
Hope this has helped

Jerry
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Re: Circle Skill and variants

Post by Neil »

Thanks, Jerry.

Firstly many thanks for the prompt response.

Were there many different manufacturers?

Or would it have been made by say either manufacturer X or Y?

Just trying to pin down the manufacturer for my customer's own interest.

Finally, I have been interested in coin-op items for about 20 years, mostly slots and whilst I have seen many many many allwin type machines, I had never seen a single machine like this before - so are these rare or still quite common? I am keen to add one to my small collection. Is it more likely I would locate another in continental Europe rather than in the UK?

Any help/info appreciated.

Kind regards, Neil.
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Re: Circle Skill and variants

Post by pennymachines »

Hi Neil,

Recently I mentioned to Jerry that I thought the Circle Skill was made in my home city of Birmingham. Re-reading Nic Costa's World's Fair articles reminded me where I got this idea. The game was invented by William Thompson's Coin Operating Company and manufactured at their Gothic Arcade premises in Snow Hill, Birmingham from the mid 1920s. They launched a coin and cigarette payout version: the Circle Skill Bonanza and the Circle Cigarette machine. The Circle Skill Bonanza was a development of the company's Bonanza Jackpot. Basically they just replaced a fixed pinfield with a rotatable pinned disk. At some stage during its production it was modified into the Circle Skill Profit Sharer. Maybe this happened after the Coin Operating Company became insolvent in 1932. They reformed later in the year in the new Phoenix Works premises in Claybrook Street, possibly trading under name of the Phoenix Manufacturing Company. This is the attribution given to both the Circle Skill and Circle Cigarette in the Costa-Haskell Collection catalogue. The company closed for good in 1936, a few years before William Thompson's death.

Although they claim to have filed provisional patent 24137 on the Circle Skill Bonanza, I've been unable as yet to find a patent on the machine.

Perhaps this is why Martin Botticher's Automatix includes German versions made from 1929 to 1952. Although Martin's book is a fairly exhaustive catalogue of German payout machines, significantly, it doesn't include the three types of Circle Skill familiar over here. Nevertheless, jimmycowman's Lucky Circle (above) does have many hallmarks of a German wall machine.

So to answer your questions - the Cigarette Circle Skill was made by the Coin Operating Company or Phoenix Manufacturing Company of Birmingham, probably in the 1930s. It is not a very rare machine although its generic type is much rarer than the allwin type. Obviously, you're more likely to find one here than elsewhere in Europe (although some will have found their way to Holland, Belgium and America). With a bit of patience you should be able to track one down.
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Balance Automat<br />Jentzsch &amp; Meerz<br />Germany, 1930
Balance Automat
Jentzsch & Meerz
Germany, 1930
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Bolero<br />German, 1930s
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German, 1930s
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Duplex Magnet<br />Plinke<br />Germany, 1952
Duplex Magnet
Plinke
Germany, 1952
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Problem<br />Germany, 1932
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Germany, 1932
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Rekord<br />Enge<br />Germany, 1929
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Enge
Germany, 1929
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Lucky Circle<br />Germany or Britain? 1930s
Lucky Circle
Germany or Britain? 1930s
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Circle Skill Profit Sharer<br />Phoenix Manufacturing Company<br />Birmingham, UK, 1930s
Circle Skill Profit Sharer
Phoenix Manufacturing Company
Birmingham, UK, 1930s
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Circle Skill Bonanza<br />Coin Operating Company<br />Birmingham, UK, 1920s
Circle Skill Bonanza
Coin Operating Company
Birmingham, UK, 1920s
SkillBonanza.jpg (4.46 KiB) Viewed 14180 times
Last edited by duckiezoo22f on Fri Jan 26, 2007 11:54 am, edited 1 time in total.
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JC
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Re: Circle Skill and variants

Post by JC »

Aha! So they're British after all. Well done to Pennymachines for coming up with the correct information (again)! Yes, I remember our conversation a while back, although I can't recall how we got onto the subject of Circle Skill machines. It's amazing how the conversation can digress in the course of an hour long phone call!

Anyway, to get to the point. The Circle Skill Bonanza looks really impressive. Has Pennymachines (or anyone else for that matter) ever seen one of these? As stated above, the various versions of Circle Skill are not particularly rare, but I've never seen one of these - not even a picture.
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Re: Circle Skill and variants

Post by pennymachines »

I think I've seen one Bonanza Jackpot but never the Skill Bonanza.
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Re: Circle Skill and variants

Post by Neil »

Hello everyone,

Thanks for all the detailed information, I will pass it onto my customer and keep my eyes peeled for one.

Best Regards, Neil.
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Re: Wall vending machine with rotating pins

Post by pennymachines »

Update. While digging out links for the patents pages I found we can backdate the original Circle Skill a little further to 1913. Horace Burton, the engineer who designed it lived in Walsall, even closer to home than I thought. I assume his proximity to William Thompson's Birmingham-based Coin Operating Company was not coincidental and that he was connected in some way with the company.
The drawing more closely resembles the later versions: GB191224532
He elaborated upon the design later by adding an extra moveable pinfield: GB191405186
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Re: Wall vending machine with rotating pins

Post by rigg »

I have one of these.. 1928 stamped on faceplate. It has wooden tokens that are dispensed when you have a win, with, 'PENNY MACHINE CO., SANDGATE' stamped on them. Must be a token that was exchanged for a prize instead of a packet?? of cigarettes maybe! Lovely condition - so nice to see another one.
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Re: Wall vending machine with rotating pins

Post by coin-op »

Does anyone know if the standard type circle skill came with a top flash, or were top flashes on these machines generally a later distributor/operator addition? Mine appears to have had a top pediment at some time and it's on my mind to try and put on a new one. I seem to recall having seen a circle skill with an art deco angular pediment, but a friend sent me a pic of his with a nice curved pediment. I think I'd find it easier to knock up a suitable art deco style top, but really I ought to aim for what is right.
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Re: Wall vending machine with rotating pins

Post by JC »

By 'standard' I assume you mean the three column vender version, as pictured above. I've only come across two of these in the past with top flashes or pediments, neither of which looked original - one actually looked ridiculous.
I'm guessing that these machines were not originally supplied with pediments.
But it's only a guess.
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Can you help?

Post by brianward »

(Circle Skill topic merged - Site Admin.)

Recently acquired the following machine which I believe to be a circle win. Can anyone from this incredibly knowledgeable site tell me anything about it? It works on old pennies and if you guide the ball into any of the three slots it vends something. Any help or other photos would be most helpful. Has it been altered in anyway? Who made it? Was the green backflash cloth originally? Hoping for help on this as I don't want to mess with it if it's in its original condition.
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Re: Can you help?

Post by JC »

Your machine is called Circle Skill. For many years, these machines were considered to be German, dating from the 1930s. Sometime ago, Mr Pennymachines discovered that they are in fact British, manufactured by William Thomson's Coin Operating Co. Birmingham.
The green plastic backflash isn't original. You should find that it is covering the original aluminium back, which will have a swirly circle design, usually referred to as 'engine-turned' backs (although engine turning is actually something completely different).
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Re: Can you help?

Post by pennymachines »

The discussion to which JC refers (with pictures of the vending version of the game) has been joined to brianward's query.
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