Got another Allwin Deluxe

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pennymachines
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Re: Got another Allwin Deluxe

Post by pennymachines »

Scottie wrote:So this machine was a reserve ball made in Germany by Jentzsch & Meerz, Leipzig around the 1920s..... (before removing the reserve ball and putting on the B.M. Co. signs).
That's what I think. It would have been called simply Allwin Deluxe - see Allwin Deluxe (Reserve) adverts.
The reserve mechanism might not be too hard to recreate if you had one to copy but, as you say, that leaves the problem of the paperwork. I would leave as is.
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gameswat
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Re: Got another Allwin Deluxe

Post by gameswat »

I don't see any sign of the mounting holes on the two previous machine photos for the reserve mechanism that holds then releases the balls?? Unless the backing tin plate has been totally replaced on both? I have a reserve ball door here myself and it has some parts and some missing from just above the ball release mechanism.
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scottie
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Re: Got another Allwin Deluxe

Post by scottie »

hi gameswat
i just went down stair and took a good look at the machine
i dont see any holes (where screws were) and i dont see any discolored /clean wood where "something" was
all the screw heads look old and rustie,doesnt ever look like they have ever been removed.....
i wonder how hard it would be to remove the "allwin deluxe"with out any damage and see it there is a window ????
scottie
13rebel
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Re: Got another Allwin Deluxe

Post by 13rebel »

Mr PM, not doubting your knowledge sir, but could you please tell us what the tell tale signs in Scotties photo are that makes it almost certainly a converted reserve ball game? Thanks.
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gameswat
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Re: Got another Allwin Deluxe

Post by gameswat »

Third pic down is a Reserve Ball mech photo i posted earlier under another thread about the Seven Mysteries of Allwins, and the two from earlier in this thread to compare. You can clearly see the parts above the ball release that hold and then release the reserve balls. Also many other added levers etc, and this one still has the token mechanism intact. This machine was totally unmolested.
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allwin%20001.jpg
allwin%20001.jpg (26.53 KiB) Viewed 3061 times
Allwin%202.jpg
Allwin%202.jpg (45.11 KiB) Viewed 3061 times
Allwin%20reserve%20mech_1.jpg
pennymachines
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Re: Got another Allwin Deluxe

Post by pennymachines »

13rebel wrote:Mr PM, not doubting your knowledge sir, but could you please tell us what the tell tale signs in Scotties photo are that makes it almost certainly a converted reserve ball game?
No guarantee I'm not talking total bollocks - but here's my thinking. It's a bit convoluted, so please bear with me...

In Seven mysteries of the Saxony allwin, paulbohlmann confirmed that the vast majority of what we recognize as classic German allwins came from Jentzsch & Meerz. He said, "I think they were the only one who built and exported the Allwin-style machines". In the same thread, lepingouinmecanique posted J&M's Leipzig-printed flyer, advertising Model A & B of the Allwin De Luxe to the English (and French) market. Together with Bolland's advert, which includes a Model C, all incorporate the reserve ball feature. Unless someone can turn up a German flyer to prove otherwise, I think this evidence from absence makes a strong case that J&M's Allwin De Luxe was only offered in this form.

So, if this is correct, and Scottie and Arrgee's allwins are German, they were Reserves. But, part of my reason for supposing they are German, is that I believe they were originally Reserves! To escape this circular argument I offer the following...

On Scottie and Arrgee's mechanisms, you can see two holes on the long vertical arm (red arrows). These are drilled and, as I think they can confirm, tapped. The coin-payout reserve mechanism below, and Gameswat's unmolested token payout example, show how shoulder screws originally threaded into these and linked the arm to the reserve apparatus.
Scottie's non-reserve allwin
Scottie's non-reserve allwin


Arrgee's non-reserve allwin
Arrgee's non-reserve allwin


Coin pay reserve allwin
Coin pay reserve allwin


Gameswat's token pay reserve allwin
Gameswat's token pay reserve allwin
token-reserve1.jpg (21.4 KiB) Viewed 3024 times

But, as Gameswat says, there's no sign of mounting holes or slots on the reserve-less backing plates. British companies which reconditioned (and sometimes re-badged) Saxony allwins had the facilities, parts and spares to build them from scratch, so replacing this bit of tin (or brass) would have been trivial.
Bolland's Supply Co. wrote:Send your old Allwins along to us, and let us quote for rebuilding them like new.
Checks, Springs and all other spares stocked for these machines.
But why replace it?

Notice the knurled knob in the diagonal slot, on the non-reserve allwins (green circles). The operator can set this to prevent the ball returning after a win. This doesn't exist on reserve allwins, which automatically return the winning ball.

So, when these reserve games were converted to single ball because they were too generous, an option to make them even "tighter" was added with the adjustable ball return gate. For this, it would be necessary either to remove the backplate and re-cut it, or for a cleaner job, replace it with a newly stamped piece.

I doubt your machine-turned aluminium facing has been replaced, Scottie, so removing the instruction card should prove me right or wrong. It's held by some pins (or screws) and the inner track, but I'm not encouraging you to attack it just to satisfy my curiosity! Sometimes they're also glued.
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JC
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Re: Got another Allwin Deluxe

Post by JC »

Excellent observations PM, although I think the tapped holes in the payout arm may be spurious – I have at least two machines that I know to be British and were never Reserve Balls, but still have these additional holes in their payout arms. I think it reasonable to assume that parts were recycled at times, or used as ‘standard’ parts.
However, there is one flaw in your explanation: Looking at the picture posted by Scottie at the start of this thread, there is only one ball exit hole on the playfield. If the machine was originally a Reserve, should there not be two – one for the ‘play’ ball and one for the reserve balls? There is also no evidence that there was ever a ball feeder above the hammer box.
…………or am I talking bollocks?
pennymachines
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Re: Got another Allwin Deluxe

Post by pennymachines »

Ah Jerry - I think you've blown a ball-sized hole in my intricate scheme!
Back to square one on Scottie's machine. :-(

I take your point that parts would have been reused, but I'm still inclined to believe J&M only made the De Luxe as a reserve machine.
JC wrote:I have at least two machines that I know to be British and were never Reserve Balls, but still have these additional holes in their payout arms.
How were you able to establish with certainty their origin? Not doubting you - but I don't recall seeing anything on what I took to be a British Allwin Deluxe that indicated definitively where, or by whom, it was made.

Revisiting the below Allwin de Luxe (from an old thread posted by Swedish member, fredslilja) - which I guessed might be Birmingham-made, I notice it lacks the reserve mech screw holes on the vertical arm. I take that as further evidence it wasn't German.
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British Allwin De Luxe?
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JC
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Re: Got another Allwin Deluxe

Post by JC »

How were you able to establish with certainty their origin?
I guess the short answer is that I can’t say with absolute certainty that they’re British, but I’m pretty sure they are.
The first is an allwin de-lux with a felt-covered playfield. I believe the door doesn’t belong to the case, as they seem to have been made from a different type of oak. That’s irrelevant really – what matters is the mechanism. I believe it to be British for two reasons: First, it doesn’t have a Saxony type ball release, instead having a simple BMCo type release. Second, there is no payout reduction gear (the silly little gearbox that doesn’t seem to serve any useful purpose).
The second machine has a plastic backflash, no doubt a later addition. Although it does have a Saxony ball release, once again, there is no silly gearbox. In both cases, there are a number of parts of the mechanism that just don’t ‘feel’ German – I can’t really explain that, you’d have to see them to understand what I mean. I’ll try to take some pictures when I get a chance
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scottie
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Re: Got another Allwin Deluxe

Post by scottie »

Hi P.M
I went downstairs and took another look at my machine and it has 3 threaded holes in the long vertical arm ....mmmm. I'm still thinking of removing the sign to look behind it.
scottie
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