A letter to eBay UK?

[ilovemyjukebox]

Have I missed something…

The law states that you need a permit to sell a machine. EBay are abiding by the law. They remove machines where the seller doesn't have a permit.
If the sellers of the modern day fruit machines are managing to by pass this, then good luck to them.

If you want to sell a machine then surely you should buy a permit.

This idea that there is an individual who spends every waking minute of his day trawling through the listings trying to spot someone circumventing the law if frankly ridiculous. It's all done by software on word recognition. Perhaps you should look and see what the modern machine sellers are using to attract their buyers and plagiarise some of that.

Dave

[malcymal]

Anybody tried selling machine on a cornershop postcard board? I've got rid of two this way and got good prices too, impulse buys with no competition, no waiting around for the buyer to show up or not pay 'cause they are local buyers and cash avoids 15% combined ebay and paypal fees. Chance your luck, it's worked for me. The ebay argument - aren't we just very small fish in the grand scheme of things in ebay's priorities?

[margamatix]

If you want to sell a machine then surely you should buy a permit.

Well, there's too much taxation as it is, and I certainly disagree that anyone selling a pre-decimal one-armed bandit should have to pay the Government £25 for the privilege.

Having said that, I am currently applying for a permit, the only difference will be that I will raise the starting price for my Mills Hi-Top from £75 to £175 when it turns up.

[treefrog]

Boy, the Ebay topic never goes away, there must be over 10 threads going on for years on the same........The only thing I miss from the ebay issue was as a buyer the selection of fresh machines coming to market, never sold or attempted to sell a machine on ebay and never will. I also think going down the permit route is accepting that this is acceptable to you all, so your giving in.......As Malcymal says, sell elsewhere.......boot fair, auctions, other selling websites etc etc....... Also I am sure there was an Arisocrat Esprit by ex member Widget on there the other day with a permit stated and has disappeared

[jonesthegarage]

Yes, I saw the Esprit too and quite cleverly he showed it pictured with two other machines which he said were available at the same price. One was a Riviera, I forget the other. I also noticed his permit number was around number 70 which I thought was perhaps not right, as I'd seen another recently well over number 100. Maybe a mistake; maybe another try at getting around the rules which we could all have benefited from, but the fact that it disappeared altogether makes you think it was a "policing" issue that led to its removal. I know that you can trace a personal permit on the Gambling Commission website if you have a surname to start with, so it is easy for Ebay to check if correctly quoted or not.

It has just popped into my head that we should perhaps petition our respective MPs as these rules are against free trade and more importantly our Human Rights are being abused. The latter always seems to be a winner in the courts, from prisoners to jobseekers to illegal immigrants. Perhaps I will make a listing saying my machine cannot be removed as I am in fear of my life from slot radicalists who have drones capable of remotely creating coin jams.

[jonesthegarage]

....the other machine was a Riviera Oxo, which somewhat strangely is still in Market on this Forum. Obviously when you get excommunicated it doesn't sweep all the corners.

[raj]

I know that you can trace a personal permit on Gambling Commission website if you have a surname to start with so it is easy for Ebay to check if correctly quoted or not.

I'm not sure if you can track single machine permits via the Gambling Commision site; Personal Licences can be tracked however.
Any permit in the 70 range will have expired, or be very close to expiry, so it is possible the number was made up or 'borrowed'.
I don't know the story behind widget2k4, however it is near impossible to delete traces on t'internet with a name like that. A simple google search will reveal a huge amount about a person with any online presence, and it will sit there for years...be warned!

[coppinpr]

This idea that there is an individual who spends every waking minute of his day trawling through the listings trying to spot someone circumventing the law if frankly ridiculous.

First, if you call ebay they will freely admit to you that they rely almost entirely on reports from people to spot breaches in there selling policy. Many members of this forum can confirm that.
Second, it only takes a few mins to see that the ads for modern machines are often MORE likely to attract a computer search than ours do, especially as those machines are still usable as gambling machines. The fact that modern machines don't get pulled is the biggest evidence in favour of a human troll so far.

[jimmy55]

I agree with 'ilovemyjukebox', the idea is ridiculous .....but as coppinpr says, if you watch the listings they is no comparison between the treatment of the two sorts of machines. The only reason I started the thread was to try and put ebay on the spot and get an answer as to why it was happening. BUT I quite understand people's clear reluctance to 'rock the eBay' boat. The best we can hope for is an eventual change of heart by the legislators or a more widely known auction platform to sell machines.

[jimmycowman]

I'm sure it's been said before, but... in the States don't they have an antique coin slots on ebay where all the old stuff goes on... Why isn't ebay UK the same? Always thought their country was more strict on gaming??? Like it or hate it, I bet most people on here look on ebay weekly or more............

[badpenny]

I've never really understood the never ending movement to try and and challenge eBay about why they won't break the law because it's unfair (depending on which angle you're looking at it from).
I was taught at a very early age that whether I liked it or not two wrongs don't make a right.

However Jimmy just mentioned a relevant point, namely they are a lot more picky in The USA however they still seem to let machine auctions run.

Perhaps the disclaimers they put in about which states they can't accept bids from carries some weight.
So for all of you losing sleep about the unfairness of a corporation doing exactly what it wants to do, try copying the American style disclaimer and add UK, it's got to be better than insomnia.

IMPORTANT DISCLAIMER:
"Due to laws regulating the sale of antique slot machines, I, as the seller, won't accept bids from members in the American States of Alabama, Connecticut, Hawaii, Indiana, Nebraska, South Carolina, and Tennessee, nor from residents of The United Kingdom. Bids from members residing in any of these states will be cancelled. Buy It Now transactions with buyers residing in these places will be considered void"

Alternatively what's wrong with using the Auction on this site?

[jonesthegarage]

it's got to be better than insomnia.

I think I've got insomnia but I'm not losing any sleep over it

[aristomatic]

Selling antique slot machines

Sellers in most states can list slot machines that are at least 25 years old as long as they include the age of the machine in the listing. A few states require that slot machines be even older to qualify for antique status, but a few allow more recent machines. Check your local laws to ensure that your transaction is lawful in your area.

However, buyers and sellers in the following states may not buy or sell antique slot machines because of laws prohibiting slot machine ownership in their state:
Alabama
Connecticut
Hawaii
Indiana
Nebraska
South Carolina
Tennessee
All listings for antique slot machines must include the following text:
"Due to laws regulating the sale of antique slot machines, I, as the seller, will not sell to members in the states of Alabama, Connecticut, Hawaii, Indiana, Nebraska, South Carolina, and Tennessee. Bids from members residing in any of these states will be canceled. Buy It Now transactions with buyers residing in these states will be considered void."

[coppinpr]

I think BP understands the ebay USA disclaimer but was offering it as a possible way (a little tongue in cheek) of getting round ebay pulling your auction. Unfortunately, this will not work as Ebay allows machines to be listed in most States because it's not against the law to sell machines in those States but requires the disclaimer because it is against the law to BUY in some States. Our law stops at the selling position - we are not allowed to sell, but are allowed to buy and own (for our own use), so the disclaimer is actually not valid unless you are selling the machine from outside the UK.
Nice try though BP.

I've been tracking the removal of slot machines from ebay for over 18 months and there seem to be times when they don't get pulled. I've been waiting for the Xmas period to check out if the same thing happens this year as it did last year. Last year, about 5 days before Xmas, machines stopped being pulled from ebay (the forum did pick up on this at the time) and now, again, it seems to be happening. Can't be sure yet but machines seem to be staying on. If this follows last year's pattern, it will continue like this till about 1st Jan then they start to go again. Perhaps the troll takes a vacation, as the same thing happened last summer for three weeks.

[aristomatic]

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/ARISTOCRAT-KI ... 27dc553635

This one was listed with no permit details in listing copy, in the used category (e.g. working order) which was removed by ebay, then seller relisted, this time with a permit number disclaimer (1000141) in the description. That listing was then removed by the seller (reason unknown) and now the seller has relisted the machine within 'parts and non working', (with no licence permit number shown within the listing copy). To be honest, I am surprised the seller hasn't sold it off ebay by now as it has had bidders on all 3 listings & presumably would have had further interest via messages etc.

If they don't actually have a permit (likely) and have had it listed and visible with a number of bidders and interest via message, they would I think be better off just listing it as a Buy It Now with the price they want but presumably not been offered yet, as it's more likely to tempt someone with a BIN listing and/or limit the listing to 1 day, as the longer it is scheduled to be on ebay the more likely it is to be removed. Hopefully, they will get it sold for Xmas and someone gets their Xmas present...... (difficult to wrap tho!).

GP

I bid on this on behalf of someone who lives locally to the seller but who is away till the 26th. This got pulled last night sometime. I only saw the message this morning, so the robots are still working!

Thanks for your interest in this item.
261358409768 - Ainsworth 'Spinning Reels' pre-decimalisation one armed bandit

However the Jennings Governor is still listed, so maybe that will get to its scheduled end, so maybe ebay robots batteries needs replacing or maybe it's due in part to Xmas uplift of listing volumes (in general) that the system misses a few listings. Maybe it doesnt miss when it's running at less capacity? E.g., my postie has delivered umpteen numbers of misdelivered neighbours' post over the last week and during the rest of the year maybe we get 1 a month, or maybe a new postie or postie is on the mulled wine a week early?

[treefrog]

Not sure if the same, but was contacted by someone who I met at a fair looking to sell a Kingsway in good condition and wanted £400 for it. Could be the same and explain the reason it has not sold.....

In terms of this time of the year, think I stated last year, I reckon outside of any removals, that this is one of the best times to sell items, as people get very bored over the festive season and search the sites. Ironically, people sell less..... BP will know this when we went to a New Year's Day auction, the only one, seriously packed and masses of online bidders with crazy prices reached.

[badpenny]

I sure do, I also recall you laughing in the face of some egotistic geezer who tried to tell you that a wrecked Günter Wulff bandit would be worth nearly a grand when rebuilt and you telling him you had a few dozen of them in a shed if he wanted to pay that kind of money!

Happy days

Interestingly, that auction house is dragging its heels regarding future auctions.

BP

[aristomatic]

Well, the Kingsway has gone again, removed by ebay, so some of the robots are working... but the Jennings is still on, so make what you wish out of that situation...

The Jennings Bingo Belle project, if you had fancied a trip through the gales down to Lostwithiel, has been removed by ebay but I am sure most will have seen it and have his details should you fancy the trip. Best thing with all that wind, it's probably blown all the worm out of the cabinet for you..... and there's still a chance to get that Jennings Governor for Xmas....................... for now at least!

GP

[jimmy55]

Third time lucky for the Kingsway ..... an interesting addition to the description. I wonder if it will work?

To comply with the UK's Gaming Act and e-bay's rules concerning the sale of Gambling Equipment, this machine operates in free play mode only, and thus unable in it's current state to operate "For Profit" or "Financial Gain", and is therefore compliant with the UK's Gaming Act and current E-bay rules.

note ebay this is the third time iv listed this item so please don't remove my advert again as iv contacted the gambling commission who have informed me that as the above statement the machine is non operational and cannot be used for financial gain or for profit then no licence is required for the sale of goods.

[badpenny]

Strictly it shouldn't make any difference, neither accepting a coin nor paying out make any difference to its purpose.