Caille / Clement & Whales Countertop disc machines

[daveslot]

Neither of these is made by Caille, they are English produced, probably by Clements in the 20/30s.

[pennymachines]

You may be right but you're gonna have to expand on that Dave.

The 1906 date has to be wrong because Caille didn't introduce the Ben Hur until 1908, but they produced them in some quantity from that date until 1932. Also the more ornate front castings on the version below which Geddes & Mead date to 1908 certainly looks earlier to me. So could the above example be the "improved" model which Caille produced from 1928. If it is a copy by Clement & Whales, they were sailing a bit close to the wind placing a marquee with the "Caille" name on top.

I would agree that Brian's machine is more likely a Clement & Whales so-called Caille Commercial but without seeing the stampings on the 50 stop-mechanism, can you be sure it isn't a revamped Caille? The later Clement & Whales Commercials and Greyhounds have 25 stop mechanisms.

[daveslot]

Hi Dave, I have not see the revamp 1928 Caille, has anyone any pics of one, as for the in the US, I have other observations: I am not aware of any made on 50c, it is 25 stops, it has the large payout cup, all the Ben Hurs I have seen have the half size one and 50 stops, the case is quarter cut oak, I have never seen a British one with this, it looks as though this may have operated in France as you can see the tell-tale bolt heads were the licence plate was fitted.

As for the Clements, from my own observations these were all made 50 stop originally, then later cut down to 25 stops as, I presume, they became worn. All the 25 stops I have seen look as if the teeth on the payout wheel have been hand cut, whereas the 50 stop wheels look as manufactured. Any comments please...

[operator bell]

Wow, they all look different - it seems improbable that they were all made by the same company. I'm inclined to believe the French connection with the VCA machine because of the symbols - the sun, moon, stars is a very French theme. There's a French one in the Gauselman museum that looks very similar, except it has the usual colors and numbers and is missing the Caille nameplate. Could the Cailles be an early example of badge-engineering?

Link to Museum web site - note, the links don't work on the English pages.

The picture's detailed enough that you can see fingerprints on the metal and screw holes at the bottom where there may have been a license plate. Photo credits may belong to Freddy Bailey, though in truth I can't remember where I got the picture.

[pennymachines]

Two more for good measure.

Dick Bueschell refers to the 1926 improved model of Ben Hur in the Illustrated Guide to 100 Collectible Slot Machines Vol 1 but there's no picture, so I don't know how it differed.

Yes, those licence plate holes and cosmic disc surely point to France. The one below is in fact from Jean-Claude Baudot's Arcadia: Slot Machines of Europe & America and he dates it even more erroneously to 1905. Reproduced in the back of the book is a consignment note to La Compagnie Caille, Paris from Caille Brothers, Detroit dated 1911 which includes four Ben Hurs on 10 Cents. So they were supplying machines manufactured for the French distribution arm of the company on French coinage and I suspect they did the same for the British market. The other Ben Hur pictured is in Britain and has no hint of a French past.

Could it be that the "improvement" was to the tune of 25 stops? None of the later ones seem to run to 50 stops.

[brianward]

Thanks to all for the information. A friend has told me that he had a machine exactly the same some 20 years ago and he was told that some 200 machines were imported for the British market between the wars. Imported then may well have meant from either the US or France. For me, I played on one at the Newcastle Under Lyme travelling fair in the late 50s and won. I therefore always wanted one. If memory serves me right, Jerry auctioned one at Coventry in November 2006 but it did not reach reserve.

Thanks again for the replies. Really enjoy the slot fellowship,

Brian.

[operator bell]

Interesting, isn't it, that we tend to collect the machines we played when we were young. That kind of accounts for the greying of the collector community, as other people have lamented on this and other forums. I personally despise the modern electronic slots and wouldn't have one in my house except to break it up, but I was amazed to find there are entire communities in forums like Fruit Forums and MPU Mecca wetting themselves over Barcrest and JPM machines, which they regard as "old". Meantime somebody on an American forum was comparing auction prices from 1980 and observing that most mechanical bandits fetch less now in actual dollars, which means they're down over 70% in real terms.

[arrgee]

entire communities in forums like Fruit Forums and MPU Mecca wetting themselves over Barcrest and JPM machines

They probably think we are also nuts wetting ourselves over great lumps of metal and wood mechanical machines that do not light up or make awful electronic sounds

Would agree with you Operator Bell about electronic slots. I personally love the way all the old, purely mechanical slots, were put together - you can actually see what's going on which makes it interesting for me (oh, yes and I am grey on top, or rather what is left on top).

As for 1980 auction prices today being down 70% in real terms, at least a lot more folk can now afford them. If prices were still as high, only the likes of Heather Mills would be able to afford them, and then she would still winge.

[john t peterson]

I don't think Ms. Mills will be purchasing British coin-op anytime soon. Now that she has secured her financial future through four years of hard honest labor, she will undoubted be coming to America where she will be feted as the latest replacement for Britney Spears and Paris Hilton by a public seeking titillation at any level. If only she could dance.

[coin-op]

Now that she has secured her financial future

Yep, as the Daily Mail put it 'act in haste, repent at Heather'.

[john t peterson]

I see that Ms. Mills will be judging our Ms. America contest later this year. I look forward to this as she brings much needed expertise in an area important to young woman looking to succeed here in the States: gold digging.

[nigeld]

Topic merged - Site Admin.

Just found this item on ebay, thought someone might be interested.
Looks a bit unusual to me, but I'm new to all this, so know nothing...!

Listed as "RARE 1930s CAILLE COIN OPERATED ISLE OF MAN TT MACHINE"
Item number: 360153378569
Ends 17 May @ 14:54
Start £425
Collect from Stansted

[coin-op]

This is the third or forth time that this actual machine has appeared on ebay. Not exactly common, but they do appear from time to time and they seem to have survived in reasonable numbers. The TT themed graphics is just an add on theme revamp, as usually these machines show their dial face with coloured sections corresponding with the colour coded coin entries at the top. A company called Callie in the USA is associated with these spinning type gambling machines and so they seem to be referred to as 'Callies' whether or not they are actually Callies.

[pennymachines]

The payout scheme has also been revamped in a rather strange way. Normally Red/Black pay 2d, and Green, Yellow and White pay progressively more - sometimes 4d, 10d, 20d. Often they're cut down to be less generous by changing the slides and grinding off the numbers on the coin acceptor casting. On this one a plate has been fastened over the front and the colour distribution on the disc has been altered - otherwise Red and Black would be sure-fire winners at 4d.

They're often referred to as Caille Commercials, (commonly mispronounced "kaylee" or "Callie", as Coin-op spelt it) but I think most were made in the UK by Clement and Whales).

[treefrog]

One of these, but the Greyhound Stadium version sold in May for £1060, nicely spruced up....I have been meaning to post a question on this though., as the mechanism does not seem to have any payout slides as with the normal Commercial Caille/Clement version machines. The payout seem to provide from 2 to 20 coins, so how would this be achieved?

Another picture of a 20 payout Caille below

[pennymachines]

The mechanism looks quite different from any I've seen before. It's a 50 stop disc and maybe the payout slides are tucked away somewhere out of sight? Evidently, from the top casting, it doesn't pay 20 coins, but is limited to a rather miserly 2-2-4-4-6 payout scheme. For this, it would only need a 2 and a 4 coin slide.

[gameswat]

I've just read this whole discourse on the "Caille" wheel style machines and have found it quite interesting. Especially having never owned any of the variants, though I have had the chance to, just passed on every one within my grasp due to the Greyhound style revamping which didn't interest me.

One thing nobody has mentioned though is that the early US made Caille models shipped to France on 10c used the large size coin then, up until just before the first world War I think. And this just happens to be almost identical to the English Penny and also the US 50 cent. So this suggests to me that there were in fact original US made Caille versions sent to the UK from France at later dates since they didn't need major conversion to operate there. Thus some of the surviving "Penny" versions must be original Caille, including some sold incorrectly in the US as 50 cent models.

[pennymachines]

Yesterday I posted a little summary of my current theories to a thread which was started back in 2006 on our American cousins' Coin Op Collector Forum: Need help identifying this counter wheel on E-Bay

wheel.jpg (27.01 KiB) Viewed 5746 times

The origin of these machines is hard to discern, particularly with so much variation in cabinet design and detail.
It would appear that some Caille countertop wheel machines were manufactured for export to Britain (and France) in the 1920-30s. Perhaps the British export version was christened "The Commercial". At least one British manufacturer made copies, presumably because demand was great and perhaps because the demise of Caille Bros Co. meant that supply and patent protection (if any existed) ceased. Quality control was probably not what it had been at Caille Bros., although it's difficult to judge from some of these old mechanisms which have clearly taken a hammering.

Clements Machine Co. Ltd., a London based manufacturer and Caille distributor, was selling the Commercial in 1934. I believe most of the British "Caille" countertop wheel machines were made by Alfred Clement in partnership with Oliver Whales, under the name of Clement & Whales. A popular version was the dog race themed "Greyhound Stadium".

So, as you say Gameswat, it's possible some 50c Cailles were imported from the States for use in the UK, although 50c was a mighty stake, even prior to '30s Depression. Nevertheless, it seems they were manufactured on non-U.S. coinage for export in the late '20s - early '30s. You never see them on anything but the old penny over here, and as you point out, French 10c Cailles may have been shipped to the UK, particularly after 1937, when they were illegal to operate in France. I think these genuine Cailles can be distinguished easily by their superior quarter-sawn oak cabinets. Although designs vary on the British-made machines, walnut, or some other veneer, over a cheaper wooden carcase seems to be the norm.

Thinking about it, patent protection would not have been an issue - the spinning disc mechanism had been "in the public domain" so to speak, from before the turn of the century, even longer than that of the bandit. However, it seems unlikely Clement would have jeopardized his Caille franchise by manufacturing copies before that company went under.

Another thing, which contradicts some of our earlier comments: all the genuine (i.e. quarter-sawn oak cased) European Cailles, like the four pictured on page 2 of this thread and the three below, are built with 25 (not 50) stop wheels. Notice also, they all have the same payout scheme: 2-2-4-8-15. The hybrid machine (bottom picture), with cross-cut veneer case, Caille top casting and Clement Greyhound Stadium disc, is probably also a genuine 25 stop Caille mechanism.

These "Euro-Cailles" are often referred to as the "Ben Hur", but they differ in several ways from their American market namesake (examples of which can be seen on page 1 & 2) which have a different top casting, fancier "placed bets" trim, shallower coin cup (perhaps unsuitable for large pennies) and 50 stop wheels with a 2-2-5-10-20 payout scheme. I'm guessing therefore, that either (as I suggested before) these are the "Improved Ben Hur" of 1928, or the export model, possibly called the "Commercial". Either way, it's so similar to the earlier machine, it's not surprising if the original name stuck.

I think most of the 50-stop Commercials in the veneered cases were made by Clement & Whales, copying the Ben Hur mechanism. The 2-2-5-10-20 payout scheme would have had huge player appeal where it was tolerated and could only be applied to a 50 stop game. The payouts were often nobbled at some point, either to comply with the maximum 12D jackpot rule or because operators were greedy. Sometimes this required numbers to be ground off the casting. Most Greyhound Stadiums I've seen have only 25 stops. Perhaps, these date from the period when new machines were not available and, as has been suggested, worn 50 stop mechs were cut down to 25 and re-themed to exploit the craze for greyhound racing.

So I'm suggesting games of this type in Britain had at least three distinct origins:
25-stop Commercials made by Caille for export to France or the UK
50-stop converted Caille Ben Hurs
50-stop Commercials and Greyhound Stadiums built by Clement & Whales.

[pennymachines]

Three more examples: the first, a 50 stop Greyhound Stadium without the greyhound coin-head, the second appears to have a new cabinet and re-manufactured handle backplate. They all have altered payouts with added 'lost' positions to cut down the odds: 2-2-4-6-6, 2-2-4-8-12 and 4-4-4-10-15.

[pennymachines]

Bolland's Amusement Machines Supply Co., Ltd. catalogue advert for 50 stop Commercial with 2-2-5-10-20 payout scheme.
Described as "British throughout", which, if true, confirms my view that a '50 stop mech' does not equal 'made by Caille'.