Watkins patent dispensing machines

[jimlad]

Hi All

My name is Jim Watkins and I am new to this site. I am very interested in Target Air Rifle shooting and on purchasing an old antique air rifle I acquired an old Pellet dispensing machine very similar the the Watkins Patent phonograph needle dispensing machine on the first page of this site. There is some slight damage to the wood case on the top, everything else seems to be in good order, although I cannot work out how it would work. There may be a part missing from inside, hence the post. Is there anyone out there that could help me in this matter with drawings, photos or maybe they have a similar machine.
Thanks in anticipation.
Jim

[pennymachines]

Hi Jim and welcome.
I'm sorry we haven't been able to assist you so far, but sometimes you just have to wait until the right person comes along.
The image of the Watkins Patent phonograph needle dispensing machine was donated by US forum member Rick.

Meanwhile, I repost some of your images and the link from the AirgunBBS.com forum which brought you here: http://www.airgunbbs.com/showthread.php ... et-machine

[jimlad]

Thanks for your help.

[pennymachines]

Here are some more snippets of information on the Watkins Patent dispensers.
Although several seem to have turned up in the States, they are British made, manufactured by T J Watkins of Watkins Patent Delivery Machines, Shrewsbury, for dispensing small consumables such as matches, air rifle pellets, billiards chalk, gramophone needles etc. in clubs, hotels and theatres for one or two old pennies.

A collection of bespoke matchboxes printed for Watkins dispensers, advertising the venue: http://www.matchboxlabelsuk.co.uk/galle ... temId=1746

Theatre Royal Wolverhampton.jpg (11.03 KiB) Viewed 7853 times

This ebay sale of a Rare c1930 "T J Watkins Patent" Billiard or Snooker~ 1d Penny Chalk Dispenser shows some good close ups of the mechanism. It looks very simple, as befits a dispensing machine designed for club, rather than general public use.

That one sold for £427 on Nov. 29th 2015. Another was sold by Morphy Auctions for $1440 on May 03, 2015 but one at Gerrards Auction Rooms on 15th Oct. 2009 was a snip at £26.

As none of the dispensers actually quote a patent number, and because the mechanism hardly appears innovative, I rather doubt that Watkins held a patent for these. In any case, the mechanism was probably similar regardless of the item vended - whether needles, pellets or matches, the dimensions of the box dispensed could be exactly the same. What I see is a chute to carry the penny down to a counterweighted drawer release. The coin will rest upon the drawer release until you pull the drawer forward, dispensing the product and allowing the coin to continue off the release to the cashbox at the base.

[sweetmeats]

I have a similar machine to yours and from your pictures you only appear to be missing the coin slide taking the penny from the entry to the 'see-saw' that releases the drawer. I have put up a photo of the inside of my machine which I hope helps, also a copy of the Watkins patent. Yes, it was patented and a lot earlier than most people thought: October 1904. However, if you look at the coin entry, to me it is similar to other Edwardian machines I have and have seen so when researching the patent I started looking 1902 onwards.

[jimlad]

Thanks all, especially Sweetmeats. It is all there - just had to get my head around it. Simple design, got it working. Pity no boxes of pellets with it.

Thanks again
Jim

[pennymachines]

Yes, well done that man.
Here's the full patent: GB190422734 (A) ― 1905-08-24

So Thomas John Watkins was hotel proprietor of the Criterion, 40 High Street Shrewsbury.

In 1900 it was a tied house owned by Lassells and Sharman Brewery but run by landlord Thomas Watkins. Their inn had six private and four public rooms and accommodation for four people in two rooms. They also had excellent toilet facilities for that period with three water closets and two urinals. For entertainment the customers could play bar billiards or have a game of shove halfpenny

http://www.historicalhostelries.co.uk/000018.html

"During an exhibition match at the Criterion Hotel, Shrewsbury, on February 2nd (1903), H. W. Stevenson made a break of 588 in playing against T. J. Watkins..." Practical Billiards by Charles Dawson (Champion): 1904

[john t peterson]

Mr. PM,

Are you sure you were not a master reference librarian in a former life?

J Peterson
Bookie in America

[jimlad]

It has been suggested that the pellets would have been dispensed in small quantities in a small box or tin. Would anyone have any photos or knowledge of the type of packaging that would have been used?

[pennymachines]

Are you sure you were not a master reference librarian in a former life?

Like Slotalot, I like to see how much can be squeezed out of the internets.
Not a lot until Sweetmeats came up with the patent number.

It has been suggested that the pellets would have been dispensed in small quantities in a small box or tin. Would anyone have any photos or knowledge of the type of packaging that would have been used?

Given the dispenser's early vintage (1904+), its origin and the tubular shape of the delivery hopper etc., maybe they were originally British-made 'off-the-shelf' round tins or possibly bespoke printed boxes like those referenced above. The recess in the dispenser drawer will give you the diameter.
Here are some typical British air rifle pellet tins and boxes from the turn of the century to the 1950s: http://www.network54.com/Forum/670443/t ... ccessories
The air rifle pellet tin below is 7cm diam. - too big I would imagine for your machine. Possibly, Watkins repackaged pellets, etc. in their own small round cardboard boxes?

[jimlad]

Topic merged - Site Admin.

Hi All
Sorry to be a pain, but there is no key to the lock on this pellet machine, and I am not sure if the lock is working. There is the number 10 stamped into the wood at the side of the keyhole which may relate to the key.
Would there be any chance of obtaining a key or possible replacement lock?

http://s601.photobucket.com/user/Jimlad ... j.jpg.html
Mechanism pictures copied from photobucket. (May be useful reference for someone in the future) Site Admin.

[coppinpr]

The lock looks damaged and a new key would be an expensive and perhaps fruitless option I feel. Similar, but not identical locks are out there quite cheap. The photo is not that clear. What kind of a key was it? I'll look and see what I've got (let me have the exact size please).

[coppinpr]

Just glanced into the workshop and saw these - might fit. Let me have all the sizes.

[jimlad]

Hi Coppinpr

Yes the lock is slightly damaged and I am not sure it would work with a key. Your lock looks similar, by putting a new lock on the cabinet - would this alter the authenticity of the machine? Would it be better to look for an old one?

http://i601.photobucket.com/albums/tt10 ... 4infkq.jpg

[jra]

Try ebay number 111900070632.
This looks similar to what you are looking for.

[coppinpr]

The lock on Ebay is, I think, exactly what you want, but it will be expensive. I suspect it will cost you over £20 by the time you add postage.

If you don't win it, the ones I have are the right size but the fitting holes are different as you can see, I can send you one to check if you like.

The ebay lock is the way to go but the postage is a killer. I can get it sent to a friend in the US for the standard postage but it would mean you not getting it till May when I meet up with my American friends in Shanghai. Let me know.

[pennymachines]

...putting a new lock on the cabinet - would this alter the authenticity of the machine? Would it be better to look for an old one?

Yes and yes. Better, in my view, to have a broken or missing lock than the wrong one. It might be possible to repair by salvaging bits off another broken lock.

[jimlad]

Hi

Yes that lock on ebay looks the part will have a go at.

Thanks

[coppinpr]

As to the pellet tins, my guess is they would have reflected the tin shape used in the Watkins needle dispenser. The usual shape for gramophone needle tins was rectangular, round ones were quite rare, and a rectangular tin would surely suit the mech of a dispenser better than a round one.

[jimlad]

Hi


Thanks for all the help. I have placed a bid on the lock on ebay - it is exactly what is needed, so if it is a little expensive it don't matter. With regards to the delivery package, I think it has to be round, as the tube that holds them above the draw is round and the recess in the draw is round, about 1 1/8" in diameter, so it is either a small tin or, as suggested on an airgun collectors' site, it may be a cardboard box similar to the little boxes that the toy gun reels of paper caps came in in the 40/50s.
Still looking for an answer.
Jim