Sega Windsor series bandits

[horiane]

Hello all and thanks for your forum. I’m french and my english is not very good sometimes.

Well, I come to you because I just buy 2 sega slot machines (you can see the models on photos) and both of them have problems but not the same ones. I explain :
- The machine Mad Money works pretty well : the arm is not too hard, the wheels turn well but it has a payout problem. Only the cherry payout is right (two 5p for 1 cherry and 5 -sometimes- for 2).
But there are mistakes : the machine pays 10 for exemple for 2 oranges and a plum or a lemon instead of 2 oranges and a bar (nothing for that combination) and for some other combinations, it’s often 2 coins.
- For the second machine, the Crazy Bells, the payout is ok but the arm is hard as if there was a hard spot. I try to know where it is but I found nothing. However it makes the wheels turn. And it's not the right reel strips.

Well I tried to reverse the slides of the 2 machines but nothing changed. Same payout problem on the Mad Money and ok for the other machine. Conclusion, the problem is not the slides or the coins.
Is it possible that the problem come from the wheels or the vertical fingers order or timing or other things I have no idea ?

And last question : what is the fonction of the switches on these machines ? (see photos)

Thank you in advance for your answers.

[badpenny]

Hello Mon Brave and welcome to our site.

Your pay out issues ....
Are you using the right coins? They should be the old shilling and not the new 5np coin which is much smaller.
You may have excess dry grease which is stopping fingers and slides
There might be a coin jam in the slides
If you line up a winning combination do the vertical fingers go all the way through the discs without hesitation?
Are all of the vertical fingers connecting to horizontal fingers behind the slides, non missing?
If every winning combination can not be accessed by a vertical finger then either the reels are wrong or more likely the strips have been rotated. Perhaps only slightly.
The slides should have no grease or lubrication at all.

As for the switches etc. You have an electric coin acceptor. The two switches power the solenoid on the other side which enables the handle to engage and then disengage it after the play until the next coin enters.
Incidentally the handle engaging mechanism the solenoid effects is adjustable and may cure your hard spot, but only tamper with that as a last result and always mark where it was before you move it. You might jam the machine up completely if you move it anymore than a mm.

Don't worry, it can all be fixed no matter what the problem and we shall still talk to you after Brexit

Ask more questions as you need to.

BP

[horiane]

Thanks for your answer.
I bought coins on ebay : old 5p. I think they are the right ones. In the machine there was a lot of 1 franc. I suppose they used them to play but I prefered buying 5p.
I cleaned the slides of the 2 machines and they have no more grease or oil but I must verify the fingers.

For the hard spot, where can I adjust the solenoid effects (one of the circles on the photo) ?

[badpenny]

You've spotted it, it's the top nut you've circled in red.
I can't stress enough the need to mark its trunk against the holder before you move it, and to only move it a fraction at a time. The further out you set it the longer the pull on the handle (until the mech jams without firing) the further in the shorter the pull (until the mech fires without having reset itself properly)
Before you do that though get the handle to the hard spot and then rock the handle to check if you can see friction elsewhere. Perhaps the kicker that sets the reels spinning is jamming or the slide reset links.

BP

[horiane]

Ok, I'll try that as a last resort. I'll continue to search something else before. I've one or two ideas to test.

[banditboy67]

Nice machines, just bought one very similar but mine hasn't got the jackpot feature...
Always fancied one with the jackpot but never see them for sale over here..

[coppinpr]

Everything BP has said is (of course) right. One thing he might not have made clear is (and it really is a last resort): if you loosen the bolt to adjust the timing it might not in itself adjust the problem. Usually with the bolt loose you will need to move the part shown in yellow in the photo below. You must then retighten the bolt. Do not run the machine with that bolt loose. As BP says, you must mark the original position and only move it in very tiny amounts. I've had several of these but never needed to make this adjustment. It's possible the bolt does adjust the bar. Can you confirm BP?

The payout problem can, as already said, be many things, but because of what you said about the wrong reel strips on the other machine I'd test out the reel strip positions on the non paying machine first. Because you have identified the failure to pay on orange, orange, bar, but it does pay on orange, orange, lemon, that's a good place to start.

Set the reels at orange, orange, bar and look to see if the vertical fingers go through ALL THREE payout plates. If they only go through two, then the reel strips cannot be quite right. If they do and it doesn't pay, then we have eliminated that possible cause at least.

windsor help.jpg (52.12 KiB) Viewed 5852 times

I'm not sure if you know the best way to set a payout for testing. If not, use this method:
Cycle the machine outside of the case; as soon as it fires up block the timing fan with a cloth; set the reels to the desired position; lightly hold them in place and remove the cloth allowing the machine to finish its cycle.

[horiane]

Thanks.

For the moment, I won't touch the nut to adjust the handle. After both of you said, it's too much risky to try for now.

For the payout, I'm going to test what you propose with the reels and vertical fingers.

I'll let you know if there is progress (or not )

[coppinpr]

You said the reel strips on the crazy bells are wrong. As the two machines are identical except for the belly glass on the Crazy Bells, I'm guessing the only thing wrong with the reel strips is you have Alfred E. Newman faces instead of "£". Simple overlays will fix that problem. If that's the case let me know the size of the face and the number needed and I'll make the "£" for you if you dont have the resources to do it. (I make a lot of payout cards and the like).

What are the strange payouts listed on the top glass under the words "pay line"?

[coppinpr]

I started fooling with the art work while waiting for the take away curry to arrive and came up with these

[dutchboy]

Curry? Sounds good paul...

[treefrog]

Shame if the Crazy Bells is not all there as in its original form it has a great win feature every time a bell lands.

I have a crate full of original glasses for these machines, can check if needed.

[horiane]

Thanks, nice work coppinpr. Yes, I suppose I could replace the Alfred E. Newman faces with £.

The payouts listed on the top glass under the words "pay line" are the "Mystery payout" (photo) or it's the wrong glass and instead the right glass, they place a sticker.

Treefrog, if you have one of the original glass, I'd really like to see one of them.

But for the moment, I work on the mechanical problems: I disassembled the slides, I cleaned them again. I cleaned the top of fingers without remove them. I tested the payout outside of the case with different combinations with the coppinpr method, it worked (just some random wrong combinations or mystery payout ???)
After a few successful tests inside , the machine start again with wrong payout . I don't understand why. It's really weird.

[coppinpr]

See if the payouts improve with the mech out of the case.

just some random wrong combinations...

It's worrying that there are still random payouts. Check all the payouts one at a time and list what happens that shouldn't and what doesn't happen that should. Sometimes one strip is out of line. If it's the third reel this can make it look worse as cherries will be fine while everything else will go crazy. If, for example, there is more than one orange on the third reel not any orange in a winning position will work. It has to be a certain orange to make the others fall in the right places.

Safest way to check payouts is to find a symbol that only appears once on each reel. This is usually "bars", but not always. Line these up using the method you used before and test. If you only have one bar on each reel and three bars pays correct then it's not the reel strips.

Your mystery payouts sticker is a bit of a strange one. If you're going to put a sticker on the front listing the mystery payouts then they are not a mystery any more. I suspect this was added by an operator to give the machine a larger number of payouts showing on the screen.

That looks better

[banditboy67]

I have a crate full of original glasses for these machines, can check if needed.

Would you have one for this? Also is it possible to convert this machine into a jackpot payout machine?

Sorry about thread hijack.

[coppinpr]

Sorry about thread hijack.

That's why they are called threads, they lead on to other things.

The problem converting to a jackpot model like the French ones above would be finding the JP unit (although I guess it would be a standard Sega JP). The normal JP for these is hand filled and looks like the ones below. One of those you might find.

[treefrog]

Crazy Bells, as mentioned, had one of the Win features and would have had electric solenoids on fingers to support. Below is a video of a fully working one and you will see correct strips. Also the top award does not match the machine. The mystery payout part has been added later.

May have the phonographic belly glass.

It would be worthwhile performing a complete check of all payout options using a long screwdriver and making a note - it will confirm what the machine should be.

[horiane]

Hello,
For the Crazy Bells, I suppose it's a mix of different models. As Treeforg proposed, I'll test all the payout options to know what machine it can be.

But first, I try to fix the Mad Money. I almost solved the payout problem: I adjusted the timing (I suppose) with the nut on the photo. I say "almost" because it pays combinations right except some 18 ones.

Now, I'm going to work on the jackpot 'cause I don't know if it works. If someone could tell me how such a jackpot works, it would be really helpful. I put photos of the two jackpots for those who have similar machines to compare. Do you think they are complete? I can add other photos if necessary.

For those who are looking for bulbs (payout light), the 30v 5w ones are expensive and difficult to find. So, I tried 24v 5w and it's OK.

[coppinpr]

I can't honestly say I've ever had a jackpot like this. They are complex so they clearly were made in some numbers but I've never had one. Having said that, it looks to be very much like the standard JP and the theory of how they work will be much the same as the standard Mills/Sega jp (most of the parts look the same or similar).

I'm guessing the unit has two compartments, one on top of the other. The top part fills from the coin overflow (or by hand as one of your machines seems to hint) and is the reserve jp. The bottom compartment is the actual JP and fills from the reserve after a win.

The top payout slide on the machine has a post on the top - when the jp is won this moves allowing the jp to cycle, emptying the bottom compartment into the coin tray. When the machine resets all the slides at the start of the next play, the movement of that top slide resets the jp, closing the bottom door and opening the top door, allowing the reserve coins to fill the bottom compartment.

Jackpots are notoriously prone to problems, especially the reserve section and operators often removed these. Because the JP is not in constant use it gets dirty and stiff which causes the most problems. The JP unit is not part of the mech and can be removed from the mech without undoing any connections to the rest of the machine (just the screws that hold it on). Remove the JP and clean and very lightly oil its moving parts (at this stage do not dismantle it, just remove the whole thing). Check all springs are in place and working well. Cycle the jp by hand once it's off the mech to check its operation and to learn how it works. If it runs smooth it's probably going to work. Replace the unit, set up the JP win, see if the top slide moves as expected and if the JP cycles.

[badpenny]

But first, I try to fix the Mad Money. I almost solved the payout problem: I adjusted the timing (I suppose) with the nut on the photo. I say "almost" because it pays combinations right except some 18 ones.

I'm thinking you may have a weak spring on the clock governor. If it's paying out some of the times, it may not be getting to the very end of the cycle all of the time.

You should hear three clunks .....
The first is the brakes stopping all of the reels
The second is the vertical fingers firing across
The third is the clock linkage releasing the retainer from the slides so they clunk back against the horizontal slides in order to pay.

Listen for those three clicks, if you only get two sometimes then you're missing the last one ..... so, no payout!

BP