Pilwin Restoration

widget2k4 · Post by **widget2k4** » Wed Feb 14, 2018 8:25 am

It's hard to tell on the picture but when I do mine I sandwich it in between thin firm sheets of plastic and when in position you really can't tell it's not all plastic, much better than laminating and it gives it the original plastic finish look. On other allwins I do as treefrog mentioned and fit a plastic sheet over like Wonders done and that looks good also.

treefrog · Post by **treefrog** » Wed Feb 14, 2018 9:16 am

I suspect someone making backflashes for the Pilwin in bulk might not be hugely viable as far fewer exist than the stripey ones.

All the Bryans backflashes been sold over the last 10 years, were these from Bryans as mentioned. I remember early Elephant auctions there being huge piles of these at a tenner each. Someone also mentioned there was a left hand one and right hand, not sure if they were pulling my leg. I suspect most of us have at least two spares kicking around.

Widget you are right about a lot of people liking clean shiny looking machines in their houses and Henry Powell has made a living selling to the public such items. I suspect we are talking about collectors who look for history. There are sooo many people turning up on this forum who have paid a fortune for a modern restored machine seeking technical help that are not collectors but frustrated their pricey machine has stopped working. Old topic I know, but in the US this has been changing over the years and collectors are becoming less interested in the shiny and pay a premium for original machines. Same happened to classic car market. We will see in years to come where this ends up, but I reckon the high machines will become the good originals.....sometimes there is no choice but to restore due to condition or previous bodge jobs.

coppinpr · Post by **coppinpr** » Wed Feb 14, 2018 9:42 am

what happened to the image coppin did ?

I removed it

bryans fan · Post by **bryans fan** » Wed Feb 14, 2018 11:28 am

I have a NOS Pilwin backflash from Jim Bryan that I am going to use on my Pilwin, ( one day!) I consider this to be OK. The repro Elevenses type back flashes that Melvin Wright produced, were screen printed onto clear plastic. I think if you are going to repro them they should be as the originals were done, not paper laminated. This is my opinion.
I believe in conservation rather than restoration.

treefrog wrote: ↑Wed Feb 14, 2018 9:16 am Someone also mentioned there was a left hand one and right hand, not sure if they were pulling my leg. I suspect most of us have at least two spares kicking around.

The original backflashes were sloping left to right. The later ones that Jim had done were sloping right to left.

I think it's all about being true to the originals. I saw recently Bryans Oak repro cases on ebay with dove tail joints. Bryans never used dovetails to my knowledge.
This debate reminds me of the old joke about a hammer, "I've had this hammer 60 years, it's had a new head and a new handle!"

tammy · Post by **tammy** » Wed Feb 14, 2018 11:34 am

I am glad places like the Louvre, Paris don't restore the pictures there with paper printed copies. Imagine the Mona Lisa? It would be like the Mr.Bean film with Whistler's Mother!!

I do wonder if many first time buyers realise if they are buying a copy?? I knew a collector a few years ago who kept knocking up small fortune teller machines out of old wood. The only bit original was the front bit of paperwork and he made a fortune. He told me he was getting a little worried as when they then sold on again that people stated they were all original... £500 or more he said the last one on ebay sold for.

shiny penny · Post by **shiny penny** » Wed Feb 14, 2018 11:39 am

Prefer the OFAH Trig version of that joke especially as I`ve got a 60 year old hammer in original condition!

widget2k4 · Post by **widget2k4** » Wed Feb 14, 2018 11:57 am

OK then, so what happens when original parts are no longer available? What then throw the machine on the scrap heap?
My mate restores bsa motorcycles and unfortunately there is no new original parts in production anymore so is it not OK to use reproduction parts, there are factories out there producing reproduction parts so obviously true bsa collectors are still having to use them as there is nothing else available, that is just one example.
Vintage slot machines are going the same way either make the part they need and make them live again or scrap them that's the choice I think.
The anoraks in this game will obviously choose the scrap method lol

coppinpr · Post by **coppinpr** » Wed Feb 14, 2018 12:20 pm

I agree with Widget,keep em alive and looking like they should, I always think "what would the old time operators have done" true,for the most part nothing,they would have just run the deteriorating machine till it fell apart BUT if they needed to they could,and did, replace backgrounds,paint cases orange (sadly) and make replacement parts,if it was ok with them to replace its ok with me (not the orange painted case though)

also, it has to be remembered, if machines had been dumped as soon as they became tatty and not tarted up we wouldn't have anywhere near as many machines with us today

badpenny · Post by **badpenny** » Wed Feb 14, 2018 12:32 pm

tammy wrote: ↑Wed Feb 14, 2018 12:23 am The trouble I have with this is that there were 3 pictures of the Pilwin, one was after it was took off the machine but the one when it is on the machine surely doesn't look that bad. It's just a bit of paper once it's gone you might as well just buy a reproduction machine if you take it all along the line. No one is saying if a backflash is really past it that it isn't a good course.
I have restored many machines and some out of damp conditions where you have to do what you can.
All I am trying to open up is the fact I feel it is really sad how every vintage one arm bandit has to have its reel strips pulled off for new ones, missing all the character they had in the penny arcades of the 1950s and 60s that I so loved.

As a teenage schoolboy in the 60s I'd spend my school holidays working at my Uncle's arcade in Paignton. He never bought parts for any of them. We used coffee tins to bend out bits we needed, a felt tip pen to change award cards and mend backflashes and any old paint to tart them up.
You have to remember that these machines were there to earn money, the operators had no nostalgic hazy eyed memories about them. So were his machines any less authentic?
As I've pointed out on here before, bandits often arrived at his back door sprayed in primer ...... for various reasons. It was up to him (and the Army Surplus Store) what colour they ended up.
There's no such thing as Original or Proper, only what it looked like once and what it looks like now.

BP

treefrog · Post by **treefrog** » Wed Feb 14, 2018 12:51 pm

You will argue this point for ever, but some of us do not believe what a lot of collectors do to machines and classify them to be honest restoration that is needed to preserve a machine, remember that is our opinion which will not change.....I have walked away from so many such machines at collectors auctions and regretted others I have bought for the same reason. I also will hold on to honest original machines and yes that includes operator changes over the years as other collectors will do.

I cannot classify major changes by collectors to part of its working life history, but subsequent change done by the collector. I also disagree it has to be done in all cases. Of course there situations where reproducing parts is no choice and agree of course these may need to be made or reproduced.

I suspect we are talking about two things here, one is people’s preference and taste to true anal collector syndrome, which I only partially fit into.

Sometimes collectors have no choice but to buy a rare machine changed by a collector as there may be only a few that exist. A good example is a so called Aussie bandit I bought, but someone had chromed parts that were never chromed, that is because of owner taste and not about originality....but I have no choice.....

As I say this argument could go on forever and I suspect I views will always differ

coppinpr · Post by **coppinpr** » Wed Feb 14, 2018 12:52 pm

I have a NOS Pilwin backflash from Jim Bryan that I am going to use on my Pilwin, ( one day!) I consider this to be OK. The repro Elevenses type back flashes that Melvin Wright produced, were screen printed onto clear plastic. I think if you are going to repro them they should be as the originals were done, not paper laminated. This is my opinion.
I believe in conservation rather than restoration.

I think we all agree in conservation rather than restoration what I cant understand is some people seem to think restoration is not acceptable even if the original is past conservation.
The quote above is a case in point in a way as if you do use the Jim Bryan backflash you will be "restoring " the machine not "conserving" it"
the golden rule in museum conservation is "The goal of conservation is never to make something look “new” again" You could make the argument that as the backflash is NOS it would be original but you would still fall foul of the golden rule of conservation.If an operator had bought the pilwin backflash back in the early days to replace a damaged original he would have been restoring it and conserving it. Using one of the Jim Bryan produced elevenses backflashes wouldnt be true restoration because, as you say,they are not the same design as the originals

widget2k4 · Post by **widget2k4** » Wed Feb 14, 2018 12:53 pm

All this over a pilwin lol

bryans fan · Post by **bryans fan** » Wed Feb 14, 2018 2:19 pm

bryans fan wrote:I have a NOS Pilwin backflash from Jim Bryan that I am going to use on my Pilwin, ( one day!) I consider this to be OK. The repro Elevenses type back flashes that Melvin Wright produced, were screen printed onto clear plastic. I think if you are going to repro them they should be as the originals were done, not paper laminated. This is my opinion.
I believe in conservation rather than restoration.

What I should have put was, "I believe in conservation rather than restoration, whenever possible."

tammy · Post by **tammy** » Wed Feb 14, 2018 4:29 pm

I like how one reply to replacing plastic backflash for a printed paper one and made me chuckle a lot today so I have put it as quote of the day i.e. SHINY MACHINES FOR SHINY HOUSES!!

treefrog · Post by **treefrog** » Wed Feb 14, 2018 5:44 pm

This explains so much, as my house is like a sh!*t hole

ollie h · Post by **ollie h** » Thu Feb 15, 2018 6:38 pm

I appreciate everybody’s views on originality and restoration, but I felt that in this instance it is too far gone. I have taken it into my local printers and they are going to scan/ photoshop it and print it onto a piece of thin plastic for me. They did one for me about a year ago for an Oliver Whales Allwin De Luxe using an image from the resources page and I was very happy so hopefully they will do a good job on the Pilwin artwork.

ollie h · Post by **ollie h** » Wed Mar 07, 2018 9:01 pm

I picked up my new backflash today from the printers and I think they’ve done a pretty good job, what do you recon?

My next move is to sort out the mech and build a new cabinet, as I haven’t got access to a complete machine I have a few questions. As you can see from the photos at the beginning of this thread I am missing a few pieces and the photos I have found aren’t really zoomed in enough. I would greatly appreciate help with the following;

Cabinet, I need to know the thickness of sides, top, bottom etc, height of cash tray, depth of cabinet and if anyone has any close ups of the construction that would be great. Also was wandering which thickness of glass to use 4mm or 6mm.

Mouths, I am missing all the mouths so could do with some photos in order for me to make them, they look pretty simple but I’m not sure of the internal layout of the mouths.

Little piece of track, I have noticed from looking at photos of a complete machine that there is a small piece of track to the top left (next to the clowns left eyebrow). Was wandering how this is attached and is it adjustable?

Payout hopper and coin slide, some decent square on internal photos would brilliant showing the pieces I am missing.

I know I am asking a lot so any help would be greatly appreciated and I thank you in advance. Cheers

widget2k4 · Post by **widget2k4** » Wed Mar 07, 2018 9:24 pm

The sides, top bottom etc. are made out of 14mm thick wood, the depth is 150mm, the cash box area is 80mm.
My glass is 4mm.
The little piece of track is adjustable.

Backflash looks mint.