Caille / Clement & Whales Countertop disc machines

American, British, French or German? We want to know about it.
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pennymachines
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Re: Help

Post by pennymachines »

Hi Scott and welcome!

I've merged your query with the thread about your dad's machine.
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Re: Help

Post by scott christie »

Thank you very much, I’ll point him in the right direction. Brilliant.

Scott
deano67
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Caille Roulette??

Post by deano67 »

Topic moved & merged - Site Admin

Hi All,
Am interested in the Caille Roulette Allwin type machine on ebay at the moment. Can't find anything else like it or any info on it anywhere.
Anyone got any advice?
Many thanks.
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treefrog
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Re: Caille Roulette??

Post by treefrog »

Mmmm, always helps to have a picture or a link, but guess you mean the below said machine that has been on or off eBay with loads of other machines dozens of time. Yet another example of an overpriced machine over sold.....probably twice the value and should be more like £500 I am afraid.... check Elephant House for historic prices, range from £260 to £700 in various states....

See below thread on the machines by Clement and Whales... I have a few, In fact bought one off another collector on here a few years back.

This one is a 25 stop one:

Caille / Clement & Whales Countertop disc machines
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deano67
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Re: Caille Roulette??

Post by deano67 »

Yes that's the one!
Thanks for the valuation etc but wondered if anyone could date it and how rare etc. Also confused how you value it at about 500 when you then said Elephant sold one at 700. Is value down to working order/condition/location etc?
I guess a collector would pay far more than a dealer?
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treefrog
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Re: Caille Roulette??

Post by treefrog »

No idea what you are talking about dealers, of course they sell high and buy low, but not sure the seller is a dealer, there are few of those in this game.......

If you read the thread I sent above you will find loads of questions answered, like date of machines, history etc, suspect the mods will link this to it anyway.

Value is my opinion as you may always get someone willing to pay more and less and of course condition will affect things, but you choose. You will note there is a wide range of pricing at elephant house and 700 was way above others. The greyhound version tends to be more collectable as more desirable and rarer. If it was good value it would have sold a long time ago....

Good luck ;-)
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Re: Caille Roulette??

Post by badpenny »

deano67 wrote: Sat Aug 11, 2018 4:24 pm Yes that's the one!
Thanks for the valuation etc but wondered if anyone could date it and how rare etc. Also confused how you value it at about 500 when you then said Elephant sold one at 700. Is value down to working order/condition/location etc?
I guess a collector would pay far more than a dealer?
Prices are very much down to working order/condition/what part of the year it is/originality/ how long it's been offered on the market at a ridiculous price and the accuracy of previous sales reports being true.

BP :cool:
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treefrog
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Re: Caille / Clement & Whales Countertop disc machines

Post by treefrog »

I noticed Drew Pritchard had a machine on his latest restoration program this week. Interestingly it was one that sold at the Elephant 3 years ago for £370. If you haven’t seen won’t give any spoilers, but boy they missed all the hard graft from the film. One minute a pole of rust to shiny parts. Also note the use of grease on slides !OMFG!

I think they may be a bit optimistic at the expected £1500, but hey, he has some crazy customers.

Watch online or being repeated tonight on Quest TV at 8pm

https://www.questod.co.uk/show/salvage- ... HD_208403B
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pennymachines
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Re: Caille / Clement & Whales Countertop disc machines

Post by pennymachines »

I think he does an honourable job here - just enough to bring it back into attractive working order while conserving its history.
The white grease on the slides isn't a biggie. OK - it'll attract muck and cause them to bind at some stage perhaps, but quite easy to put right.

'Salvage Restoration' looks much more interesting than 'Salvage Hunting'. !THUMBS!

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Re: Caille / Clement & Whales Countertop disc machines

Post by treefrog »

Certainly I was not criticising the outcome other than the use of grease, but this is lack of knowledge of the restorer I guess. My main disappointment was that the program glossed over the restoration and seem to focus on leaving the mechanism in a tank of diesel for a week. Of course it would have been nice to have actually seen what was done during the restoration even at a high level. Problem is they compact up to 4 restorations in one hour, with adverts and multiple repeating themselves over and over again and little detail is covered. I enjoy the series in general, but too much guff..some of the guys are very skilled.
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Re: Caille / Clement & Whales Countertop disc machines

Post by pennymachines »

Yep, that's almost invariably the issue with TV and why we're all watching YouTube instead.
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ALLWIN,CAILLE,ROULETTE,INFO PLEASE

Post by deano67 »

Topic moved & merged - Site Admin.

Hi all,
Latest addition to the collection.
Can anyone give more info on it ? Date etc, production numbers, original cabinet or not ?
Thanks in advance.
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Re: Caille / Clement & Whales Countertop disc machines

Post by pennymachines »

I've attached your query to the existing 'Caille / Clement & Whales Countertop disc machines' topic because it contains about all the information we have on these games. Date-wise, I guess anywhere between late '30s and late '40s. Production-wise: these were very popular machines and made over many years, so I'm sure we're talking thousands. The cabinet looks right (compare it to others in this thread) but is quite sharp, so it's either thoroughly restored and refinished or an accurate copy - hard to tell without inspecting it closely.
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Re: Caille / Clement & Whales Countertop disc machines

Post by gameswat »

Just re-reading some old research written by Nic Costa, as published in a series of 1981 Coin Slot magazine articles about various major players in the UK industry. Of great interest to the thread is this about Frederick Bolland:

"Bolland's are best remembered for their production of the perennially popular Commercial. The machine was in fact a copy, adapted for the British market, of the Caille Commercial counter dial machine. The manufacture of the machine was contracted out to A. L. Clements, a Belgian expatriate, who had begun making copies of it as early as 1922, and who by the early 30's had been established by Bolland in a workshop of his own in Montford Place, London, to produce the machine exclusively for the company. It remained in production until late in 1939." (Not very well remembered now it would seem!)

Other than the one Bolland advert added by PM, I can't see any other reference to him on this thread. And strangely this same story above is mentioned in the Braithwaite book but no sign of the Commercial in the Bolland machine listings?

In the Alfred Clement listing in the Braithwaite Arcades book it dates the joining of Clement with Bolland as set up by mid 1932. It then says the Bolland phase lasted until late in 1939. Then stating that Clement appears to have joined Oliver Whales in Redcar from 1941 onwards. So I ask: Where does the attribution come from claiming Clement & Whales as the makers of these machines!?!? !PUZZLED!
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Re: Caille / Clement & Whales Countertop disc machines

Post by pennymachines »

Yes, Alfred Clement seems to have been responsible for manufacturing these British Caille copies for Bolland in the thirties, then for Whales from 1941. If you look at the artwork on the Greyhounds games you can see the Clement & Whales name. Perhaps they only produced and sold the doggie version?
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Re: Caille / Clement & Whales Countertop disc machines

Post by gameswat »

I did just come across another piece of old information about them written in a letter to Coin Slot magazine, dated Aug 30 1975.

By S. E. Drew, mechanical engineer to the industry:
"I believe that Bollands (written Bolands) of Camberwell made square corner 1d types. Clement had a factory at Gasholder Lane, Kennington, before the war and moved up to Redcar with Oliver Whales during the war making the round corner version. "
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Re: Caille / Clement & Whales Countertop disc machines

Post by deano67 »

Bit confused now ?? So is mine a Caille or a copy,can anyone tell by the photos maybe ?
Cheers
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Re: Caille / Clement & Whales Countertop disc machines

Post by pennymachines »

From what we've learned so far... :didact:
yours is the 'square corner 1d type' made for Bolland's Amusement Machines Supply Co. Ltd of Railway Arch number 427, Gordon Grove, Camberwell by A L Clement of 1b Mountford Place, Kennington Rd., London SE11 some time before the end of 1939.

The Gasholder Lane address given by S. E. Drew for Alfred L Clement is no longer extant. The area was hit by a flying bomb in 1944 and there has been much redevelopment. The first picture below is of Mountford Place from Vauxhall History.org but again, there's no Mountford Place (the address given by Paul Baithwaite) on current maps. There's a Montford Place which appears to be the Gasholder Lane site (the gas holders remain), so maybe both references are to the same address. I walked past it last year - a stone's throw from the Oval and a short walk from the old workhouse where Chaplin stayed with his mother in 1898 (currently the Cinema Museum).
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Re: Caille / Clement & Whales Countertop disc machines

Post by deano67 »

OK thanks for the info, so it's not a CAILLE after all then? Any markings on the mech that might pinpoint things?
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Re: Caille / Clement & Whales Countertop disc machines

Post by pennymachines »

deano67 wrote: Mon Dec 17, 2018 6:33 pm OK thanks for the info, so it's not a CAILLE after all then?
Correct. The first machine depicted in this thread is a typical counter-top Caille. Notice particularly the diagonal wood joins on the front. Clement it seems opted for a simpler cabinet construction, using veneered softwood. As we have said, just to confuse matters, it's likely that a few Caille mechanisms were recased.
deano67 wrote: Mon Dec 17, 2018 6:33 pmAny markings on the mech that might pinpoint things?
Not that I'm aware of, which is why attribution is tricky. Are there any markings on your mechanism?
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