What is this horse machine???

[momo]

I have an allwin type machine that has 3 x horses - 1x green 1x red 1x yellow
that you spin the horses and you gamble on??? any ideas, it has R SPAGNAL PARIS on the front I think (can't remember)

I have had this years and as I am not a collector of wall machines know very little on it.

I will take a photo and post soon.

Cheers in advance.

[pennymachines]

Hi momo and welcome to the Forum.

There were quite a few French wall machines made with a horse race theme, so without a little more information (or picture) it is hard to tell you much.

I assume the name on your machine is Henri Spanagel of Paris. According to Jean Lemaitre's 100 Ans de Machines a Sous and allowing for my weak grasp of French, Spanagel revamped various traditional roulette slot machines by other manufacturers into a horse race themed roulette called le Grand Steeple or le Grand Prix (circa 1930).

[momo]

Yes, you are correct, the machine is Le Grand Steeple and the name you say is correct. I will take a photo and post it on the site soon. Did they make lots of these?

[momo]

OK, here it is, all information welcome as I know very little about this machine.

[pennymachines]

A very attractive machine in my opinion.
I imagine there were only a few hundred made, judging by general trends - but I have no figures. Lemaitre gives it a rarity index of 2 - meaning there are between 21 and 50 surviving examples in France. As mentioned, they were created by converting earlier roulettes from several different manufacturers to the popular horse racing theme by replacing existing disks with three dimensional castings.
Roulettes were the favoured gambling machines in France and many styles and designs appeared in the 1930s.

For comparison see Le Grand Prix below, made in 1934 from a Mickey roulette.

[momo]

Thanks for all the information so far. As in the past when I have enquired I have just been met with blank faces! I used to have some books on these machines years ago but I guess just like the machine they have stored away somewhere or borrowed!

I found this site by accident and it made me take a renewed interest in the machine.

Does anyone have any ideas of value? Not that I'm thinking of selling of course but I've heard myself say that before....

Once again thank you for the info - keep it coming!

Does anyone else have one of these?

Cheers
Tony

[daveslot]

For comparison see Le Grand Prix below, made in 1934 from a Mickey roulette.

I always thought the Mickey was a conversion, made after the mouse became very popular in the early 30s. I presumed they kept changing the character to current popular trends.

[pennymachines]

You may well be right Dave. I was just quoting Jean Lemaitre. I guess some of these roulettes may have had more than one revamp.

I'd say momo's Grand Steeple started life as a mid to late '30s Bussoz roulette, judging by the cabinet.

[momo]

So I take it this machine has been revamped one or two times in the past.

How does this impact as a whole? Had I a Seeburg v 200 jukebox and it had been modified once or twice it would have very little value and be of little interest, so is this a common thing with wall machines or did they add to the interest?

Who is Bussos?

Keep it coming - as all info is good.

Have any of these been sold in the last few years and what was the feedback?

This machine pays French tokens which I guess you exchanged at the counter for????

Cheers for the help.

[pennymachines]

So I take it this machine has been revamped one or two times in the past.

Yes, at least once.

How does this impact as a whole? Had I a Seeburg v 200 jukebox and it had been modified once or twice it would have very little value and be of little interest, so is this a common thing with wall machines or did they add to the interest?

Certainly wall machines underwent all sorts of modifications during their working lives, to make them look novel again, less generous, work better, comply with stricter legislation, or in the case of foreign machines, make them work with British currency. This latter job was usually carried out professionally by slot machine importing companies with the facilities to do it properly. I think the value of your machine may have been enhanced by the attractive restyling (although we don't know yet what it looked like originally).

Having said this, many "professional" conversions do result in devaluation, even though they may add character and historical interest. German "Domino" wall machines lost over half their collector value when their original beautiful graphics were replaced with "Roll Out the Barrel" paperwork for the British market. Likewise, bandit collectors have always pursued untouched Mills "Hi-Tops" in favour of the British revamps like the "Black Beauty".

Who is Bussos?

Paris based former clock maker Pierre Bussoz (1872 - 1958) was a leading manufacturer of roulettes, allwins and other coin-operated devices.

Have any of these been sold in the last few years and what was the feedback?

French roulettes that were operated over here turn up from time to time.
When they do, I think they tend to be overlooked a little, considering their quality.
Obviously they're better represented in France, such as last November's Bernard Pansu sale where there was a Grand Prix, a Grand Steeple and a similar Spanagel horse racer oddly titled Six Days Men.
As for value - I'll let someone else tackle that thorny question. I've taken a vow of silence. (But I'm happy to make a private offer, if you ever decide to sell).

This machine pays french tokens which I guess you exchanged at the counter for ????

Some French machines were converted to pay out British Pennies instead of tokens. This often entailed quite extensive modification. Oddly, this doesn't tend to adversely affect the machine's value (in the UK). In fact, the opposite may be true. Many British collectors (me included) like machines which pay out the old coin of the Realm. That way, you can re-cycle your winnings.
Tokens could be exchanged for goods or sometimes cash, depending upon the location. This was more acceptable to the authorities in (Britain and France) than cash payouts.

[momo]

I find it strange that by changing the coinage to English that this increases its value as i would of thought an original coin/token would be more collectable, again my history is with jukes (sorry).

I understand remodelling to gain further use of the machine instead of scrapping it and I take it that Henri Spanagel had the licence to alter the original Bussoz machines.

You mentioned the Grand Prix and Le Grand Steeple being sold in France last November and as you don't talk about prices I take it selling this type of machine is far better in France. Do you have the sold prices please?????

How many models did Bussoz make and of what amount went on to be remodelled by "Henri" and was the company a small / large player?

Now I know as I have read on the forum that new people with poor information asking what seems like stupid questions are not that welcome and I understand this point, as I to have in the past had to answer the most stupid questions on jukeboxes so I know what it its like!!!!!!!!!!!!! but I did answer the questions and I am very glad that you have helped me in this.

I would like to see a photo of the Grand Prix rather that a black and white shot from a book so I need all of you to dig deep into the garage/loft/house etc. and take one as I am sure there is one here.

Also do you have a swap/exchange page as I am trying to buy a slot machine but also on the forum you say you need a licence to sell so I guess this is why I can't find any. I tried ebay but little there (I know why now) and there are no magazines any more - again a sore point I see.

I remember there used to be lots of bandits and we used to use them as sweeteners in jukebox deals (I will get strung up for this) also I remember going to Jimmy Brodricks with 3 floors of the damn things all lying around the floor - where did they go!!!

Well I am going to baton down the hatch now and wait for the incoming.

Let me know what bandits you have or where I can buy one.

CHEERS.

[pennymachines]

I find it strange that by changing the coinage to English that this increases its value as I would of thought an original coin/token would be more collectable...

This is the exception that proves the rule. Certainly the French would want it "as original." Collectors of British Amusement machines usually prefer the old Penny because that's wall-machine currency in the UK. German wall machine bandits such as Beromats seem to fetch more over here if they've been converted to our old currency. US coinage is favoured by serious collectors of American bandits.

I take it that Henri Spanagel had the licence to alter the original Bussoz machines.

He wouldn't have needed one. Operators and distributors were free to customize and revamp as much as they liked, provided they didn't try to pass off the result as a new product of the original manufacturer.

You mentioned the Grand Prix and Le Grand Steeple being sold in France last November and as you don't talk about prices I take it selling this type of machine is far better in France. Do you have the sold prices please?????

I'm afraid I didn't go to the auction, so I only have the catalogue, not the results - and my attempts to get more information (or catalogues) from the auctioneers have not been successful.

How many models did Bussoz make and of what amount went on to be remodelled by "Henri" and was the company a small / large player?

Nobody's published a definitive list yet, but their catalogue included many roulettes and allwins and more unusual things like a very early mechanical jukebox (Bussophone). It looks like Spanagel must have been quite active in revamping for several years in the early 1930's and it would appear that "quite a few" have survived. I doubt that even the French collectors can be specific about numbers.

Now I know as I have read on the forum that new people with poor information asking what seems like stupid questions are not that welcome and I understand this point...

I haven't seen any stupid questions on our forum yet. Our members are high calibre! All questions about old slots are welcome here, and ignorance is not equated with stupidity.

I would like to see a photo of the Grand Prix rather that a black and white shot from a book...

Below is Le Grand Prix from the French sale.

Also do you have a swap/exchange page as I am trying to buy a slot machine...

You could try an advert in the Market - but it's best to be specific about what model you want and the price you are prepared to pay. "OLD SLOT MACHINE WANTED" won't do. We all want old slot machines. That's why we're here!

I remember going to Jimmy Brodricks with 3 floors of the damn things all lying around the floor - where did they go!!!

The Star Warehouse has entered the realm of antique slot mythology. Of course, some of those machines are now scattered amongst British collectors, but (allegedly) a large proportion went abroad as part of an inventive underworld trading enterprise which culminated in Jimmy's overseas agent being assassinated in a third world country.
It was one of the most expensive places to buy old machines at the time, and the casual visitor was not always made to feel welcome. The bandits I think would have been the least profitable "investments" given their relatively small rise in value over the years.

[Ron]

What a great site!!!!!!

I would like to ask a question about ANOTHER horse game by Bussoz. I love the Grand Steeple - in fact I'm looking to buy that one. I came close in Paris 2 weeks ago.

The machine I purchased has a pointer, the wheel has pictures of horses. Red Yellow black. I was told in France they would bet for cups of coffee (to answer that fellow MOMO's question).

I have spent quite a few hours researching this machine. Maybe you can tell me more? Thanks, Ron (Brandy).

[john t peterson]

Hi Ron, Below is a picture of a roulette that sold in the Pansu auction. Is is listed as "PMU" and accredited to Bussoz, 1935. If my weak French is reliable, the mechanism is by Bonzini, another French maker of roulettes. Is this your machine? Regards, John Peterson, USA.

[lepingouinmecanique]

Hi everyone,
Just to add onto this old topic, the last picture from John T. Peterson is a Bussoz roulette called Paris Turf; mechanism and cabinet made by Bonzini in the 30s.
Bonzini was an employee of Bussoz, and when Bussoz started his jukebox manufacturing, Bonzini started his own business, but as Bussoz was very well appreciated by customers, they worked together until French law forbade this type of machine in 1937.
Maybe Ron was talking about PMU, another horse game by Holding, another French manufacturer...