Mills/Sega/Jennings Lucky Horseshoe/Devil/Chief

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coppinpr
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Re: Sega Bell Slot Lucky Devil Restoration

Post by coppinpr »

OK, we shouldn't be too far away now. Just to clarify the photos a bit.
In photo 3 the finger looks to be held back because the payout disc is slightly in the way. Is this the case?
In photo 2 the lined up three bells appear to be at the back of the machine not in the payout position at the front. Why is this?
In photo 1 the finger seems to have gone through two holes but not gone far enough to go through the third hole. If you push it by hand is it stopped solid or will it push all the way quite easily?

If the answer to question 3 is that it will move when pushed, then the finger springs are the first (but not the only) possible culprits combined with dirt and old grease spread along the payout train.
If the answer to question 1 is yes then the payout discs are slightly out of line and the easiest way to fix MIGHT be to slightly bend the finger (bending parts, slightly and with care, has always been an acceptable method right back to when they were made at the factory).
If the answer to question 2 is "I thought you just needed to line up a winner anywhere", you're wrong. They need to be in the payout position. I think you already know this, but I can't make sense of the photo as it is. :D
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brigham
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Re: Sega Bell Slot Lucky Devil Restoration

Post by brigham »

Picture 2 looks to be upside-down.
All 3 images now flipped - Site Admin.
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treefrog
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Re: Sega Bell Slot Lucky Devil Restoration

Post by treefrog »

The bells in picture 2 look roughly in the right position, but looking at picture 3 I assume this is the last reel disc (so left hand facing front) then it needs marginal adjustment up. Looking at picture 1, I see disc 3 is out by 3 or 4mm, so needs to be adjusted up. This may be an issue with the reel stops not locking correctly - check right stop pivots on the end.

Did you (using a long instrument) check every combination of wins on every reel to ensure they are all correct? Takes no more than 20 mins if not done...

I got my machine out of storage, so going to have a play. :cool:
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brigham
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Re: Sega Bell Slot Lucky Devil Restoration

Post by brigham »

I've got mine on the bench again.
I'm delighted to see 'Instone and Ashby' on the control box; A known quantity at last.
Now to draw out the wiring diagram...
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Re: Sega Bell Slot Lucky Devil Restoration

Post by thndrr »

treefrog wrote: Sat Jan 05, 2019 1:27 pm The bells in picture 2 look roughly in the right position, but looking at picture 3 I assume this is the last reel disc (so left hand facing front) then it needs marginal adjustment up. Looking at picture 1, I see disc 3 is out by 3 or 4mm, so needs to be adjusted up. This may be an issue with the reel stops not locking correctly - check right stop pivots on the end.
I think you are on to something.

I assume the notches on the outside of the disc are a give-away that the payout disc aren't aligned, since every pay-line has a notch on the disc and they aren't lined up. The stops are all properly seated in the teeth. I see the teeth have set screws (non-accessible). It looks like to adjust those teeth (and in turn the payout disc final position) I need to remove the reel bundle, and separate all the reels and adjust one by one outside of the mech, which seems like it may be difficult to get correct.

The payout finger would not budge until I lifted the lever (in the below image, green arrow) that released the stop bar (red arrow) that pushes on the fingers. Sorry I don't know the proper terminology, I have, however, purchased the famous Mills service book to rectify that! Once I unlatched that bar, the finger went all the way through and 10 coins came out, but the reels also straightened out. It doesn't appear the finger was restricted beforehand, but the disc is definitely off, so that is where I need to go next.
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Re: Sega Bell Slot Lucky Devil Restoration

Post by thndrr »

coppinpr wrote: Sat Jan 05, 2019 9:00 am In photo 3 the finger looks to be held back because the payout disc is slightly in the way. Is this the case?
In photo 2 the lined up three bells appear to be at the back of the machine not in the payout position at the front. Why is this?
Question 2 - The image was flipped, thanks admin for fixing. That was the front of the machine!

Question 3 - It would not move at all, but didn't appear to be restricted by the disc itself (in person at least). When I unlatched the bar (above post) It paid out fine, but the disc may still be the culprit.
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treefrog
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Re: Sega Bell Slot Lucky Devil Restoration

Post by treefrog »

You do not need to remove the reel bundle, you can align the reels by loosening the nuts on the reel hubs. If you look on the main spindle of the left hand and centre reel tin you will see a clamp held by two nuts. Be warned though, do each one at a time and hold onto the discs, so you marginally move each reel disc to be aligned and tighten.

I see you're missing part of the reel strip on reel three. I may have spare strips and will check. Almost finished checking wiring on my machine and added some earthing points, especially on handle assembly and this old stuff is well dodgy. Will see if I have any life :zapa:
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treefrog
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Re: Sega Bell Slot Lucky Devil Restoration

Post by treefrog »

Have checked and seem to have quite a few new old stock strips. I think the below are third reels for these machines.

Also as per Brigham, have Instone and Ashby on the control unit as has been discussed on all other threads and recently about the recent death of the creator Peter Instone...
Re: Looking for information about a Berkeley machine
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Re: Sega Bell Slot Lucky Devil Restoration

Post by coppinpr »

I could be wrong on this as I no longer own one of these and the photo that might make it clear is not showing all of the area but I think the reason the finger wouldn't move forward till you released the bar, and then it paid, is because the "anti-check payout" hook is coming into play. As far as I can tell from the photo, this is the bar marked in green (but it's not clear). This assembly is a pain in the arse and is often removed as it is (usually) not needed.

The Mills manual says this about it:
Generally speaking this device is rarely used and is often more trouble than it's worth. Its main function is to inhibit payouts from occurring when tokens are played rather than coins.This assembly is extremely susceptible to sticking and jamming and if it is left in place it must be thoroughly cleaned so all parts move freely.
I know this may not be the main problem but it might be confusing the issue. Some people wire it in the open position rather than remove it. I suggest you do this while working on the machine so it won't come into play while testing.

Also, be careful in using BELLS as your test payout unless you are sure the reel strips are now in the correct positions. There is more than one option for three bells; unless it is the right three bells only that one payout would work. Use the BARS or MELONS where there is only one winning combination. If you are sure the strips are correctly set you can use anything.
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Re: Sega Bell Slot Lucky Devil Restoration

Post by thndrr »

Thanks, I think this is what’s happening. I adjusted the reels still hitting the same wall.... as soon as I trip that bar, I can push the finger the rest of the way and the reels don’t move at all, and the machine pays out.
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Re: Sega Bell Slot Lucky Devil Restoration

Post by thndrr »

After circumventing the anti-check device I’m back in business. Everything on the mech is operating as expected with one exception. The BAR doesn’t hit. Melon hits without issues. All other payouts match, but with the bar payout the finger doesn't enter the first reel. Doesn’t really make sense, as melons work and they each only have one per reel and they use a different finger.

The second and third reel disc look OK, the first just looks about one position off. I’m working on cleaning my work bench off and making it a little deeper so I can get off the garage floor and get a better look at things. I’m sure I’m overlooking something simple.

Thanks for all the interest and help this far.
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Re: Sega Bell Slot Lucky Devil Restoration

Post by aristomatic »

Can you confirm that the first steel plate that when rotated through all 20 positions only has one hole that aligns in front of the three bars vertical payout lever position? When I say this, I mean regardless of the reelstrip combination shown on the reels.

When you cycle the mechanism and manually stop it so that the hole is aligned with the bars vertical pay out lever, and anti check is not engaged, does the vertical
lever go through the aligned hole on the first plate?
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Re: Sega Bell Slot Lucky Devil Restoration

Post by treefrog »

Sounds odd, how are you testing a forced payout...? Your reel disc matches your reel strips, so if there is no hole at the correct point for bars, it must be an alignment issue

Plugged mine in and I have no idea if it's working, as I'm unclear on how to force a win on this type of system, other than keep playing until timer kicks in, unless anyone knows. !PUZZLED! I need new bulbs as they're blown, which seem to be 24v 2.8W truck type. Have not had the balls to get close with a multimeter to the transformer yet, I hate electricity. :!:
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Re: Sega Bell Slot Lucky Devil Restoration

Post by thndrr »

I went through and re-indexed all the reels and everything was good. I then tried to trigger the jackpot by spinning and stopping the fan, lining up the pay, and then letting the cycle finish. It is still hanging on the BAR-BAR-BAR. It was not when I indexed the reels, but I now realize that was because I was NOT using the stop lever when I indexed them. So while it looked like the BAR-BAR-BAR was lining up, it wasn't actually in the locked position the reel would be in.

This made me start looking at the fingers, and I noticed this. The BAR finger, is not like the others, it rests higher. I assume this is not correct and the reason I am having issues.

0.jpg

From the back side, it's clear the BAR finger is not like the others. It does not appear bent or damaged though.
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coppinpr
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Re: Sega Bell Slot Lucky Devil Restoration

Post by coppinpr »

treefrog wrote: Sun Jan 06, 2019 1:13 amPlugged mine in and I have no idea if it's working, as I'm unclear on how to force a win on this type of system, other than keep playing until timer kicks in, unless anyone knows.
Tom, I don't think that payout is timer switched ON, only timer switched OFF (I could be wrong, I never had this version) but I thought it was a mechanical payout that started the feature by engaging a switch.
thndrr wrote: Sat Jan 05, 2019 10:12 pmThe second and third reel disc looks OK, the first just looks about one position off
Do you mean one position off on the rotation or one position off in height?
If it's height then that one tall finger could be the problem. Look at the payout disc along the rotation of the BAR hole - it will show signs of the finger hitting the disc year after year. Do these marks line up with the head of the finger? If not, then that finger is not the original. If there are no wear marks on the disc on that rotation then it's never had a finger that went through that hole (unlikely).

Does this finger do any other job like activating a switch? (It still wouldn't do the job, but it's worth knowing).

One other thing, and this might be the key, forgetting the symbols on the reels for a moment, does that finger go through ANY hole on the first disc if you rotate the disc a full circle? If it never does, then it's looking like the wrong finger. If it does go through another hole what does the machine pay if anything?
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Re: Sega Bell Slot Lucky Devil Restoration

Post by treefrog »

The fingers should be the same angle. All mine are exactly the same. I have had this on other machines before, where I have had where one finger is pointing up for no reason and had to change the finger as it's difficult to bend... odd really.

Paul, yes it is mechanical. I was unclear what the little control box does other than either timing or counting. I still have no idea even after removing the cover, a nice little coil item inside and a few capacitors and diodes, but still none the wiser. I can confirm the voltage inside of transformer is 24v and this coil has it stamped on it, as well as the finger coil and the bulbs were 24v. Problem I have is no output from transformer, so I guess it is bust and will need replacing...... So my machine will go back into storage as I was on other projects at the time and don’t want to be diverted.....

Did the worst electrical diagram below, excluding the contents on the control box. Seems that when a jackpot is triggered, either Bars or Melons, the top lower finger triggers the lower micro switch and the upper finger solenoid coil is opened that triggers a 10 coin payout. There is also a micro switch that triggers on each pull of the machine on a dummy finger (not sure why). The lights are linked to the solenoid circuit.

Should have paid more attention in my physics classes. :#:
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coppinpr
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Re: Sega Bell Slot Lucky Devil Restoration

Post by coppinpr »

Tom, you're dead right... that is the worst wiring diagram ever. Like you electrickery is a mystery to me so your diagram makes more sense to me than the usual London Underground map that is the official wiring diagram that often comes with slot machines.

I'm guessing the dummy finger sends a pulse to the counter while the circuit is live till the correct count is reached and the circuit is cut by the counter. :!?!: Can you tell if it's a make and break switch or an ON only while pressed switch (don't know the real names)?

I've had the long finger problem (that's just asking BP to pass comment I know) in the past which is why I asked thndrr if it seems to have always been there.

Thnddr:- if it turns out to be the wrong finger, don't worry, these are VERY easy to source especially in the US.
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treefrog
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Re: Sega Bell Slot Lucky Devil Restoration

Post by treefrog »

The switches are micro switches and, yes, if the switch is held down it will remain either open or closed depending on how the MS is wired in as from memory there are two contacts you can choose when wiring for open or closed. I cannot read the writing to work out which is which, but I will test at some point. Got the transformer working, so will have a play tomorrow. I think the control box must be timing based, rather than count, and maybe the adjuster controls the amount of energy stored before closing the circuit on what I think is a relay, but I could be talking b@11*cks.
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Re: Sega Bell Slot Lucky Devil Restoration

Post by thndrr »

I took some previous advice (a little bending never hurt anything) and I was able to bend it down. Mech is working like a champ now. Now that the mechanism is working good, I want to tackle the feature. Then I will disassemble and clean the entire mechanism and put it back together and begin working on the cabinet. I will need some new reel strips as well.

For the transformer, I assume its 220vac in and 24vac out as its older? 120vac to 24vac is fairly common in the states, door bells, thermostats, etc use it.

One oddity I noticed, is that the 2nd payout finger from the back (next to cherry), the one that operates the switch, closes (or opens) the switch when the Melon is on the payline, and only the Melon, not the Bar. There is a hole on the reel that triggers this. There is no other hole for this finger, only on the Melon. Reading how the feature works, I am unsure as to why this is. Could this be to interrupt the solenoid if Melon is on the line, perhaps to prevent a double payout of over 10 coins?
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Re: Sega Bell Slot Lucky Devil Restoration

Post by coppinpr »

Nice to know we beat the mechanical problems. !THUMBS! Now we enter the realms of electricity... and it's all guess work for me. There are lots of things that finger operated switch could be doing and only trial and error will tell (unless aristo can help, he has a way with electrics and TF will start poking at it with a metal bar I suspect). A few things it could be doing are:

Switching on the feature which is only working on Melons and not Bars as the operator didn't want the feature coming on too often;
switching off the feature, using a random Melon on the pay line to break the circuit (this could be there to override the timer thus shortening the feature run time saving the operator money and adding a random length to the feature run time. In fact it could be that the timer is only there to provide a max feature run time so it didn't go on forever if a Melon didn't come up to stop it. This sounds like overkill but, in the UK, there have in the past been laws about the max amount a jackpot/feature can pay out. The timer might have been introduced to set a definite max on the payout. As I said earlier, I had one of these without the control box, so a later addition to conform to the laws of the time? It could be, as you say, bypassing the solenoid to save a double payout.

Bottom line is, you're not going to know unless you're great at tracing the power line back through all the switches OR you put some power through the machine and do some tests, but take care, slots have a habit of making you think they are a soft touch with a transformer. I once dropped a screwdriver on a pintable transformer and it shot it up past my face and into the ceiling. :shock:
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