Reproduction Mutoscope reels?

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pennymachines
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Reproduction Mutoscope reels?

Post by pennymachines »

Currently there seem to be two sources of reproduction Mutoscope reels: OldTimeMovies.org ($900 each) and MutoscopeMan.com (prices not listed). I wonder if anyone here has purchased from either and could comment on quality. As I understand it, an important factor is the base on which the images are printed needs to be sufficiently elastic and hard wearing to stand up to repeated flipping, such that it resists becoming permanently bent.
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Re: Reproduction Mutoscope reels?

Post by gameswat »

Big difference here! Old Time Movies is owned by Tom Reverand, his father John Reverand purchased the original Mutoscope Reel company in the US in the 1950s. So Tom uses the original factory machinery, negatives and processes to make his reels. The Mutoscope Man reels I think use some kind of digital printing process. The major difference is his reels are not steamed, while Tom Reverand does steam and curve his reels. The steaming is very important to complete the finished reel, that gives all the pages a curl which helps with the snap flip action, but most of all allows for an open viewing area. I'm sure everyone has viewed a Muto at some time with worn original reels that has previous cards blocking the view because they have lost most of that curvature over time.

Weird I wrote captions for both attached photos but only the second one shows? Photo on the left showing Mutoscope Man repro reel with no curvature to reel at all!
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Mutoscope Man repro reel with totally flat cards!
Mutoscope Man repro reel with totally flat cards!
muto reel repro.jpg (27.82 KiB) Viewed 6367 times
Old Time Movies reel showing card curvature as original.
Old Time Movies reel showing card curvature as original.
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Re: Reproduction Mutoscope reels?

Post by pennymachines »

Thank you Gameswat - that was a most helpful and informative reply. !THUMBS!

I did note that Tom Reverand uses the original factory machinery and processes to make his reels, but his site does not explain the final part of the process and, as you say, that part is critical. In view of this, perhaps $900 is not unreasonable. I see three attractions to buying a reproduction reel: it's crisp, new and undamaged, giving a better viewing experience; there's more choice of content (instead of being restricted to whatever old reel you can hunt down or which came with your machine); the machine can be enjoyed without inflicting further damage on original reels.
gameswat wrote: Sun Feb 03, 2019 8:47 amI'm sure everyone has viewed a Muto at some time with worn original reels that has previous cards blocking the view because they have lost most of that curvature over time.
I have one just like that. For the first quarter of the reel you only see half a picture.

Another question that occurred to me yesterday. Were any colour mutoscope reels ever made?
gameswat wrote: Sun Feb 03, 2019 8:47 amWeird I wrote captions for both attached photos but only the second one shows?
Yes, I've noticed that bug, but haven't tried to squash it yet...
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Re: Reproduction Mutoscope reels?

Post by gameswat »

pennymachines wrote: Sun Feb 03, 2019 1:02 pm Another question that occurred to me yesterday. Were any colour mutoscope reels ever made?
Bob Klepner is the expert on Mutoscopes and he told me decades ago about the only known colour reel that happens to survive in Aust. It's an early Can-Can dance totally hand tinted! Being an early example I think it has the higher cards count that was used to begin with, then later they realised around 800 was ample. I guess there could be several theories to its existence, most likely made as a low production trade show piece by Mutoscope, or for a World's Fair display say? Or maybe even specially ordered by a high end location like the Moulin Rouge since it's a Can-Can. Has always intrigued me that it's the only known version. So I was in contact with Tom Reverend years ago and we talked about how I could replicate my own colour version. He sent me sample cards to experiment painting with but I never went much further with it. I was going to choose an exciting reel that would be worthy of colourisation. Tom doesn't have every negative Mutoscope ever made but quite a lot.
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Re: Reproduction Mutoscope reels?

Post by gameswat »

It's been a while since I spoke with Tom but we also talked about making a custom reel from my own footage. And he's done that for people before. I guess it can get expensive unless you already have a negative to work from.
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Re: Reproduction Mutoscope reels?

Post by john t peterson »

Let me guess. "Gameswat's Adventures on the Half-Pipe" ?? Would it include the crash scenes?

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Re: Reproduction Mutoscope reels?

Post by gameswat »

john t peterson wrote: Sun Feb 03, 2019 1:50 pm Gameswat's Adventures on the Half-Pipe
Half-pipe....................? Fool Pipe!
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Re: Reproduction Mutoscope reels?

Post by pennymachines »

gameswat wrote: Sun Feb 03, 2019 1:44 pm It's been a while since I spoke with Tom but we also talked about making a custom reel from my own footage. And he's done that for people before. I guess it can get expensive unless you already have a negative to work from.
I thought I'd read on his website that you could do this by supplying a digital movie file. Maybe you could, but I realize now why I thought that - I'd also been looking at a website which advertises repro phonograph cylinders: VulcanRecord.com, run by Duncan Miller, in Sheffield, England. He offers custom work from MP3, WAV, etc files. He also has a large catalogue of off-the-shelf cylinders from a very reasonable £16 each. I love the way these ancient once ubiquitous media formats still persist, thanks to a few dedicated individuals.

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Re: Reproduction Mutoscope reels?

Post by arrgee »

Interesting, so if Tom Reverand uses the original factory machinery and processes together with the original negatives to make his reels, these are not reproductions but original replacements, albeit made today.
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Re: Reproduction Mutoscope reels?

Post by gameswat »

Yes exactly Argee. And considering what some of the old weathered reels can sell for, a brand spanking new example is a real bargain. Even when not well looked after these things have a lifespan of what must be up around 60,000 to 100,000 views!
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Re: Reproduction Mutoscope reels?

Post by arrgee »

gameswat wrote:these things have a lifespan of what must be up around 60,000 to 100,000 views
For paper that is impressive. !OMFG!
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Re: Reproduction Mutoscope reels?

Post by bob »

I have not previously contributed to this topic as I was interested to see what others might contribute describing their experiences. Gameswat has well described and illustrated the differences between the two reels available. A bit of personal history might provide some additional information of interest here.

The Mutoscope has been a particular interest of mine as it combines my two areas of interest; cinema and its history and coin op machines. Generally people interested in film history see the Mutoscope merely as flip cards in a box and look down on it for this reason. They rarely, if ever, appreciate that, as in a film projector, the cards, because of the shorter interleaved blank cards on the reel, perform in a fashion similar to a projector, where the image is on display for a longer period than it is not (analogous to that brought about by a Maltese cross, pull down claw, beater, or similar intermittent mechanism in a film projector). Also the forward curve of both the image and the interleaved cards create the rapid forward snap which causes the blur, which is analogous to the effect of a shutter on a film projector. People generally do not appreciate that the curve in the cards is put there originally for a purpose and is a forward curve rather than a backward curve, the result of constant use.

In the 1980s I serviced some machines including cranes, Mutoscopes, fortune tellers etc, located in a group of “Pancake Parlour” ‘theme’ restaurants in Melbourne. Some of these belonged to the restaurant owner who was a collector of antique mechanical machinery such as coffee grinders, time clocks etc., and some he leased from me. As I needed reels for the Mutoscopes I got in touch with John Reverand who was selling new and used Mutoscope reels which he was actually manufacturing himself.

John Reverand was a rather enterprising insurance salesman who had bought what was left of the original Mutoscope Company including some Mutoscopes (mostly the later, smaller, “tin” models) some reels, and the original equipment used to make the reels (dating from the 1890s) as well as the negatives of the films made by the International Mutoscope Company (successors to the American Mutoscope and Biograph Company) between 1926 and 1949. John Reverand operated the Mutoscopes in children’s shoe shops in New York and made the reels to supply the machines that he operated and later to sell to others including Disneyland who had a large number of Mutoscopes at the time being played almost continuously.

Mutoscope reels had also been available in those times from the Mike Munves Co, a large company dealing in mostly used and refurbished coin operated amusement machines of all types. Mike Munves also had the correct original machinery to make these reels but only made a batch of them twice a year which meant that they were not always available.

Consequently I got in touch with John Reverand and bought some reels and parts (gears and clutches) from him. I told him that I was doing research on the Mutoscope and Mutoscope Companies and was able to provide him with some historical material including patents etc. John also re-steamed reels which had lost their curve and consequently lost their “flick” and obscured a lot of the viewing area as Gameswat has written about above. I learnt from John how to steam reels to restore the curve. This is a complicated process as it involves steaming the reels, which if done for too long turns the cards to “mush” and baking the reels in an oven, which if done for too long makes the cards brittle and snap apart. If either is not done for long enough the forward curve and “snap” is not restored. A difficult process only learnt by quite a deal of trial and error. John Reverand had restored an early cast iron American Mutoscope for the Eastman Kodak Company in Rochester for their Museum and consequently had secured a considerable supply of the very durable and snappy photographic “paper” especially made by them for the Mutoscope Company for the Mutoscope reel cards.

By the time we made our first trip to the US in 1993 John had retired to a house on a golf course and the Mutoscope business, “Old Time Movies” was being carried on by his son Tom. We met Tom in New York and he very kindly took us to the lovely old barn outside New Year where he made the Mutoscope reels. Tom showed me the still working, original 19th century equipment of the American Mutoscope Company, and allowed me to take photographs of it for my (still) forthcoming book dealing with the Mutoscope company. It was a truly magical, unforgettable experience for Beverly and myself.

Some years ago, when the reproduction reels now sold by Mutoscopeman on ebay first appeared, I was told that the cards were printed on a computer printer and consequently could not be curved as the printing would run when “steamed”. So, as Gameswat has written, the reels from Old Time Movies, made in the correct way on the original equipment with the original specification photographic cards, from the original negatives, does seem to be the way to go when looking for replacement reels for a Mutoscope.

Concerning coloured Mutoscope reels, to my knowledge there exists only one original hand coloured Mutoscope reel which coincidentally is located here in Australia. It is a reel of a French Can Can dance. This was part of the Holden collection which I have written about in another item on the Pennymachines forum and was an item in the first of the Leppington auctions. It was bought by an Australian coin collector friend of mine who still has it. I have seen it played and it is in quite reasonable condition for what would have been a very popular reel. The Netherlands Film Museum has this item on a short film reel, also hand coloured which can be readily seen on youtube on the web.

The youtube item shows the hand tinted film that the Netherlands Film Museum has of the Mutoscope can can film. I will attach a copy of a card from the hand tinted Mutoscope reel which is to my mind much more colourfully and attractively hand tinted.
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Muto colour can can.jpg
Muto colour can can.jpg (31.3 KiB) Viewed 5854 times
Last edited by bob on Thu Feb 07, 2019 7:33 am, edited 5 times in total.
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Re: Reproduction Mutoscope reels?

Post by brigham »

VERY interesting.
I'll take a copy of the book, as soon as it is out.
In the meantime, can I ask you about Mutoscope negatives. I've always assumed that the camera side of things was unchanged, and that only the format of the prints differed, depending on whether for projection or Mutoscope display.
Am I right? Could Mutoscope versions be made of known early 'movies', directly from the negatives?
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Re: Reproduction Mutoscope reels?

Post by john t peterson »

Book, book, book! !!YIPPEE!! I've been waiting years, Bob and I'm not getting any younger. You and Larry will make a dynamite Mutoscope duo. Go for it!

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Re: Reproduction Mutoscope reels?

Post by bob »

Larry Bieza, who has done an enormous amount of research on the other coin op machines of the International Mutoscope Company as well as the Mutoscope is bringing out the book at some time in the future. It will include some of my material on the Mutoscope reel machines. My work on this ceased quite some years ago and he is carrying on the project.

The original Mutoscope camera had film with images the size of the Mutoscope reel cards. This size film was also used in projectors accommodating film of this size. The Company started shooting standard gauge 35 mm film in late 1901 and January 1902 (it was legal for the Mutoscope and Biograph Company to do so in March 1902) but went on shooting on 68mm films for the Mutoscope only as well as mixed and Biograph only.

The later International Mutoscope Company shot their own original films on 35mm for use on the Mutoscope and also bought the rights from other companies with well known film stars such as Charlie Chaplin and Tom Mix etc., for material to use on Mutoscope reels.
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Re: Reproduction Mutoscope reels?

Post by pennymachines »

bob wrote: Thu Feb 07, 2019 12:44 am ...but went on shooting on 68mm films for the Mutoscope only as well as mixed and Biograph only.
So those negatives would have been directly contact printed onto the card (without need for optics, and the slight loss of image quality that lenses introduce). Even allowing for the graininess of early film stocks and lower resolution camera lenses, a negative of that gauge would capture image data comparable to, if not better than, current digital consumer formats! Not that the Mutoscope's slight image magnification would exploit this.
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Re: Reproduction Mutoscope reels?

Post by sentimental salvage »

I have a hand coloured mutoscope can can reel too.
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Re: Reproduction Mutoscope reels?

Post by gameswat »

I imagine it's the same reel mentioned above by Bob. Killer find!
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Re: Reproduction Mutoscope reels?

Post by sentimental salvage »

Nah, I don’t think it's that one, I’ve had it a long time and I don't collect coins. 🤪
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