B Firman & Co. products

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jukebox3
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Machine puzzled

Post by jukebox3 »

Topic moved & merged - Site Admin.

Hi guys,
I have the chance of buying this machine but I can’t find one similar online.
What are your thoughts on price and originality?
Also what type of machine is it?
Thanks in advance.
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treefrog
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Re: Machine puzzled

Post by treefrog »

It is a Firmans revamp of a Mills machine.

Follow thread (merged above) and you will see a few.

Value, who knows today?
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brigham
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Re: Machine puzzled

Post by brigham »

Go for it...
I'm always prone to buying a Firman, and I've never been disappointed with one yet.
pennymachines
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Re: B Firman & Co.

Post by pennymachines »

Wooden-cased Firman Pushapenny from recent Dutch Auction (unsold).
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JC
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Re: B Firman & Co. products

Post by JC »

That's nice. A lovely looking machine compared to the more common steel-cased version.
pennymachines
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Re: B Firman & Co. products

Post by pennymachines »

Agreed - but it could have started life with a steel case. :!?!: The locks look new.
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Re: B Firman & Co. products

Post by perana5000 »

From Blue Murder at St Trinians. :)
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roger
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One Strange Duck

Post by roger »

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Years ago I obtained 3 British Roman Head slots similar to the one pictured.
They were quite unusual in that they were factory made to operate on the U.S. 5 ct. coin.
The American version of this machine has the coin entry on the left side.

I sold them for a song as I did not appreciate how rare these are.

Has anyone run into one of these strange ducks ???
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gameswat
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Re: One Strange Duck

Post by gameswat »

No mistake made Roger. When these old machines arrived in the US in the 1970s they had almost no value on UK penny play. So likely it was the importer that stuck spare 5 cent gooseneck mechs into the cases to sell them for something more than very little. I've seen similiar many times over on all sorts of UK machines in the USA. Think about it, what US operator in their right mind would have imported these low quality UK copy machines with late 1920s mechs to the US to operate in the later 1930s. :!?!:
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treefrog
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Re: One Strange Duck

Post by treefrog »

I still have mine in bright turquoise :HaHa: attributed to Firmans unless known better.
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Re: One Strange Duck

Post by aristomatic »

roger
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Re: One Strange Duck

Post by roger »

Thanks gameswat, you made my day having learned that my Roman Head slots
were not worth a king's ransom. ROGER !!YABBADABBA!!
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Re: One Strange Duck

Post by daleman »

The world is still sleeping. Firman did not design or make the original castings of the variety of strange slots attributed to him. He acquired the first castings from his mates at Samson Novelty who in their turn acquired them from Mills. They were design prototypes that were never put into production. The designs scream Everitt Ekland all the way!!! https://chicagodesignarchive.org/design ... tt-eckland
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treefrog
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Re: One Strange Duck

Post by treefrog »

Hi daleman, do you have any info to confirm this, as it seems strange these machines made for the English market are of a poorer quality than Mills originals with no logos or part numbers and of course Firmans made many with their "F" logo on... I can't believe Mills would sell rip off poorer castings to a competitor. These were made on '20s machines copying '30s styles. !PUZZLED!
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Re: One Strange Duck

Post by daleman »

From the horse's mouth many moons ago - Harry Holloway, long since dead.
Firman was no designer or artist, he was a car mechanic. He may have rebuilt or recast poor copies from the original castings but he was not a designer! Compare the so called Firman designs to those of Eckland's and you'll readily see where they originate.

The same is true of Mathewson's Mermaid/ Lighthouses... Matthewson discussion split & moved here: Site Admin.
jukeboxhistory
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Re: One Strange Duck

Post by jukeboxhistory »

gameswat wrote: Sun Nov 20, 2022 4:09 pm No mistake made Roger. When these old machines arrived in the US in the 1970s they had almost no value on UK penny play. So likely it was the importer that stuck spare 5 cent gooseneck mechs into the cases to sell them for something more than very little. I've seen similiar many times over on all sorts of UK machines in the USA. Think about it, what US operator in their right mind would have imported these low quality UK copy machines with late 1920s mechs to the US to operate in the later 1930s. :!?!:
Gameswat: would you be so kind and contact me directly. I have some questions for you.
Please see the new Musicola jukebox website: https://musicolajukeboxes.jukeboxhistory.info/ with contact details.
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gameswat
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Re: One Strange Duck

Post by gameswat »

daleman wrote: Mon Nov 21, 2022 10:33 am The world is still sleeping. Firman did not design or make the original castings of the variety of strange slots attributed to him. He acquired the first castings from his mates at Samson Novelty who in their turn acquired them from Mills. They were design prototypes that were never put into production. The designs scream Everitt Ekland all the way!!! https://chicagodesignarchive.org/design ... tt-eckland
Well Daleman, that story makes almost no sense whatsover! Mills were producing the Roman Head (Silent Golden) from 1932 until 1941. So why would Mills sometime during that period, when they were at the peak of their productivity and the largest coin-op company in the world by far, why would they decide to sell prototype patterns to make similar copies!? This was going to hurt their own sale of machines to export markets in the UK and possibly Europe. And if they were going to do this as some kind of licenced/sponsored deal to a UK manufacturer then surely Mill's would have sold them the new mechansims to fill the cases and actually make it a profitable venture for them. The first photo of the Firman Roman Head posted above by Roger above was taken by myself when i found that machine in Perth back in 1992. I restored the machine and sold it a few years later as pretty quickly lost interest with it. It was obvious on close inspection this was a rather low quality recast of an original machine, with a very old and sloppy recycled 10 stop mech installed. Just the word of an old operator really doesn't hold much sway with me I have to say, none of our memories are rock solid at the best of times!


... Matthewson discussion split & moved here: Site Admin.
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treefrog
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Re: One Strange Duck

Post by treefrog »

And one wonders who got the pencil out to design this baby, one struggles to believe Mills would of have commissioned this :HaHa:

Definitely a marmite machine, I keep trying to like it :cool:

Also Firman had their own unique jackpot on some models.
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coppinpr
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Re: One Strange Duck

Post by coppinpr »

I have always liked this model, although I'm not sure why. Perhaps the over the top Deco style. I don't buy many machines now (no room) but one of these would tempt me.
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Re: One Strange Duck

Post by daleman »

Point 1: My apologies I should have clarified the info I have re Firman - I was not referring explicitly to the Roman Head but to the Egyptian bell and one or two other curious ‘Firman’ designs such as treefrog’s skyscraper, which I too think is a great looking machine. (Although alternative Roman head design layouts could have also been tried out.)
Don’t you think it odd that Firman designed these fronts in such a way that they never matched what was actually inside the case? Eg an escalator on the front, but no escalator inside, a jackpot on the casting but no interior jackpot? No ‘pristine’ version of these ‘Firman designed’ machines has ever been uncovered. Key elements indicated by the front castings are invariably non-existent in the internal mechanism.

Firman was a car mechanic, engineer and revamper based in Nottingham, who had direct links with Samson’s. Samson’s in their turn had direct links with Mills. The 1930s was the period of the Mills and Holloway playboy sons. Mills because of all the legal pressures they faced in the states were more than happy to dump things they had no use of (it’s why the UK industry could not compete- USA companies dumping things at distress prices). It got no better in the 50s.
The silent range was designed in the late 20s/ early 30s. Without doubt prototypes would have been produced and tested before launch. The Egyptian bell and Roman bell are from the same design stable but the Roman bell won out because it did not have the stigma of the curse of Tutankhamen which by the early 30’s would have tainted the machines’ playability. (The first Mummy horror films were released at this time.) Likewise the over the top skyscraper design is to my mind from the same stable- a prototype never mass produced- the one that won out for mass production was the Extraordinary.

Point 2:... Matthewson discussion split & moved here: Site Admin.
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