Sega Payout

[simzee47]

Hi Guys,
I haven't posted on here for a while but now have a couple of questions about my Lord Sega Bandit.
1) This machine used to run on the old sixpence I think but has been converted to new one penny. It pays 2 coins payout OK but when it should pay 5 it only pays 4 and 10 it pays 9. I have measured the thickness of the two coins and the sixpence is thinner. Is there any way I can modify the payout slide assembly to pay out correctly. It would appear that the 3 coin slide is the offending one or it could be an accumulation when it gets to 10.
2) I have read in a posting on here some time ago that the play lever, once pulled, will not return until the second reel stops. Mine doesn't do this. There are some ratchet teeth and some pawls on the side which don't appear to do anything. Should these be doing something? What should lock the play arm down?
3) The pneumatic damper on the play arm. Which way should the washer be fitted in here. Cup down or cup up? Does it damp the pull or the return?
Sorry if this is a bit long-winded but need a couple of little jobs now the winter nights are drawing in!!
Regards
Dave

[treefrog]

I would suspect your machine is actually a 6d machine, unless you have seen any sign of a 1p anywhere. People often use 1p coins and they will not pay out the same as indicated due to the depth. I have successfully changed 5c slides to 20p coin, by grinding down the slides to the required depth and the slide posts. You need a set of callipers to do this to get the accurate difference. In your case this will not help as it is the other way round. If you want to use 1p coins, you will need the right slides or change the payout values.

The damper should operate on the return as the mechanism takes the resistance when engaging. The springs when string if working need damping after pulling.

[malcymal]

Simple solution this one regarding the payout if it was a pucker 1p conversion:

One new pence
Thickness (Bronze) 1.52 mm
(Copper plated Steel) 1.65 mm

Composition Bronze (1971–1991)
Copper-plated steel (1992–)

I have a late Sega Windsor that actually originated on 1 new pence, not converted! I had the same problem, and it's simply whether you are using bronze or copper plated steel coins! Of course at the time it would work, here in 2010 using post 1992 pennies the difference in thickness means you get one less coin sometimes. Replace all the pennies in the tube with bronze pennies then see what happens. I would bet a pound your payouts will be perfect. Likewise if you have a 2p Jubilee machine, it does exactly the same because copper and steel coins have a different thickness. You can compare them by stacking 10 brass pennies then 10 copper plated steel pennies alongside - your 10 brass pennies will line up with 9 copper plated ones, which explains the payout difference. You might even get a slight stickiness on the 6 coins payout which fits with the 3 coin slide problem - so 4 coins pay when you pull the handle, then out pop the other 2 as the slides move back.

The dampener dampens the return of the arm so it doesn't fly back with a bang. The piston needs to be taken apart by removing the brace then pulling of the cap (gunge might go everywhere, so do it on newspaper). On the end of the piston will be a piece of leather-like material. Remove the gunk behind it, then splay the material out; blow through the air vent in case it's blocked; reassemble, then adjust by winding the adjusting screw in or out. You can do this out of the cabinet by pushing the piston in and out to see how much resistance there is. Adjustment for the dampener will be on the top or rear of the device depending on the fitted pump, and accessible by a screwdriver, therefore it should face forward towards the mechanism and not the wrong way 'round towards the cabinet wall.
Malc

[simzee47]

Malc,
Thanks for that info about the coins, I'll investigate.
The damper. I fitted a new cup washer when I rebuilt the machine. Unfortunately I forgot which way around it went on re-assembling it. Does it go cup towards the piston rod or cup away? I thought it should damp on the lever return but the way my mechanism is assembled and I can't see an alternative way to assemble it, the piston goes into the cylinder on pulling the lever. As the vent hole is at the top of the cylinder, as you say, this makes the air damp work on pull not return. I have photographs of how it was assembled before I stripped it. It was only the cup washer that I was unsure about.
I've looked at the mechanism umpteen times and I can't see how I can assemble it to get the piston to go into the cylinder on return. It's not the cylinder, it's where it connects to the pulling mechanism.
Dave

[treefrog]

One new pence
Thickness (Bronze) 1.52 mm
(Copper plated Steel) 1.65 mm

Composition Bronze (1971–1991)
Copper-plated steel (1992–)

You're right - there is a difference after measuring with my vernier micrometer. I actually got 1.6mm or 16mm over 10 coins for the steel based coins and 1.52mm for brass, a difference of .8mm over 10 coins. This equates to half a coin over a 10 coin win. I doubt you would get overpays on lower wins, but depending on the slides a 10 coins win may only pay 9. Having said this, the only floor in this theory is that when most machines were converted to decimal coinage, it would have been in the early 70s, when the brass (copper) based coinage was in use, as such they would have been set-up for the brass coins. This would only be applicable to machines converted after the 90s, which is likely to have been the case.

Another consideration can be the wear of the coins. I use a lot of silver based sixpences in my machines and they tend to have worn a lot quicker than Cupro Nickel, as such I regularly get an over payout. I suspect brass is more hard-wearing than silver though.

[malcymal]

Malc,
Thanks for that info about the coins, I'll investigate.
The damper. I fitted a new cup washer when I rebuilt the machine. Unfortunately I forgot which way around it went on re-assembling it. Does it go cup towards the piston rod or cup away? I thought it should damp on the lever return but the way my mechanism is assembled and I can't see an alternative way to assemble it, the piston goes into the cylinder on pulling the lever. As the vent hole is at the top of the cylinder, as you say, this makes the air damp work on pull not return. I have photographs of how it was assembled before I stripped it. It was only the cup washer that I was unsure about.
I've looked at the mechanism umpteen times and I can't see how I can assemble it to get the piston to go into the cylinder on return. It's not the cylinder, it's where it connects to the pulling mechanism.
Dave

Can you provide photos of your pump and the connecting mech from the handle to the pump.
A picture speaks a thousand words so it would be easier to try and work this out.
If you are getting really frustrated with it, you can send the whole pump to Henry Powell and for £25 they will recondition it, few quid for postage. Might end your woes as they will put it all back together how it should be - I think they replace the splayed leather on the piston crown too. http://www.1armedbandit.co.uk So, we need a photo of your pump and a photo of the linking piece that fits on the handle pull.

[rbrewerton]

Hi Mr Simzee,
I've done three of these bandits and each time I go to reassemble the pump I have to look at the previous one to remind myself how it goes. But basically you'll find that when you pull the handle the pump linkage pushes the piston into its cylinder (undamped ). So the leather cup needs to face towards the front of the machine. Then as the handle returns the piston is pulled out of the cylinder sucking air in through the airvent . Richard.

[malcymal]

I always take photographs of a machine now before de-assembling and any parts coming off go into separate labelled bags. How many times have you found a few bolts, screws and washers left over... doh! Going back to photos of some of the simplest assembled things has been a life saver for me. My Sega Continental project was my biggest headache of all time, so many screws of different thicknesses and lengths; the whole machine was stripped down and a complete nightmare, so many parts; thank god for the photos to put it back together.

[simzee47]

Hi Guys,
Malc was right about the coin thickness affecting the payout. But first a small confession. Upon examining the payout slide assembly I found that the engineer who rebuilt my machine (me ) had put the slides in the wrong sequence. I had (2) 2 coin slides at the bottom instead of (1) 2 coin and the a 3 coin one above doh!! When I correctly assembled the slides, payout, with the thinner coins, is correct. It isn't correct with the thicker coins so I'll either sand down my stock of thicker ones or suss out some more thin ones.
Damper piston. Batteries flat in the digital camera so can't take a photo at the moment. Will load one up ASAP.
Thanks for help
Dave

[malcymal]

Sorting pennies is easy - go to post office buy £5.00 worth of 1ps.
Get a magnet and run it over the pile of pennies; the ones that stick to magnet are the ones you don't put in the tube.
The ones that don't stick, stick in your coin tube; top the tube to the top!
Now as your machine probably has a 10 coin max payout - play any coin into mech as the tube is full the overspill coins will go into cashbox. If you win, replay the coins, this keeps your tube mainly containing the old correct 1p's. If you get a 2 win, 4 win, or 6 win regardless of coin size you will get correct payout. 6 win might pay 4 coins then ping out the other 2 on handle pull. The chances of getting a 10 win and getting a modern coin in the tube at this point will be low, so you might just get the odd 9 coin win. In general your machine will have the older coins in them. This is how I work my Sega Windsor and the payouts are on the whole spot on. Malc

[simzee47]

Nice one Malc. I didn't think of that dodge, just keep the payout tube full of thin coins. I have enough to do that.
Piston damper photos attached (camera batteries now charged up). I think the cup washer is fitted with cup facing into cylinder not facing piston rod. Previous posting seems to suggest this is wrong and that the retracting piston should suck air IN through adjustable vent not push it OUT as I thought. This may explain why I can't assemble it any other way. Would appreciate comments.
Regards
Dave

[malcymal]

Scientifically speaking, the air being sucked back in should push the piston back. I think it's a case of you having a play and taking the thing off, I'm not sure about this cup washer you speak of. Just keep pushing the piston in by hand, adjusting the valve and pulling the piston back to see what resistance you get. Take the thing apart and splay that leather crown out, remove gunk from behind this, probably a solid ring of dried grease! I've done this on four pumps now and all are working fine on my existing bandits.

[simzee47]

Hi All,
Last word on the subject. Payout (using thin 1p coins) is now correct. Using Malc's dodge of loading the payout tube with thin coins and using the rest of them to "play" is good. Dismantled damper and I had the cup washer facing into the cylinder. I reversed it, adjusted the valve and damping is now fine. It was a brand new leather washer, the old one was unrecognisable as a cup-shape which was why I was unsure which way up to fit it.
Looking for the next project now.
Have a Merry Christmas everyone.
Regards
Dave

[malcymal]

Ah, good. I like a story with a happy ending. A new project; yes it happens to all of us. Apart from the cursing, sweating, muttering why the hell did i buy this you get to the end then find numb boring TV too much. I sold a jubilee Riviera on Thursday and have a new machine waiting at mother's. It's a German wall machine called Hobby, works on 1np and quite unique in that is has a 10p coin changer slot in the side of casing that pays out 9 pennies and gives you a spin. Harold informs me you can tweak it to 20pence coin, so not sure whether I can alter the coin changer slot to a £2.00 coin; this would be nice. You have to select a number from 1 to 5, if your number comes in, you win the sum of the other two reels. A picture below shows what it looks like. This not the actual machine, as mine is in sky blue.
Malc
p.s. A profitable night at my house last night. Had a gaggle of friends and family around and I had all the machines turned on.
The Rialto took a serious amount of 20p coins off the guests; it is very addictive machine and recommend it to anyone who wants something a bit different; similar to the machine called Bingolett.