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Re: Stolen Machines

Postby coin-op » Sat Jan 30, 2010 8:48 pm

davethebirdman wrote:What needs to be proved is that the new owner knew or believed the goods to be stolen.
I can see that this needs to be proved in order to prosecute (ultimately leading to a conviction and a few hours community service) :mad: But, leaving aside the practicalities of proving ownership, if this is done then the owner is generally entitled to have the goods back as there's the old saying that a buyer cannot get a better title than the seller holds. So I'd guess that stolen goods generally remain that.

davethebirdman
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Re: Stolen Machines

Postby davethebirdman » Sat Jan 30, 2010 9:28 pm

Sorry to hi-jack this post...

Stolen goods remain stolen and anything gained as a result of those stolen goods also become stolen until they are passed into lawful custody.

So, the machines are stolen... The money the thief realises from the theft is also stolen. The handler you buys the goods knowing they are stolen also commits an offence and the machines remain stolen. If he then sells those goods to another and the other is unaware that they are no longer stolen. The money from the first transcation etc is still stolen.

The new purchaser of the goods now has a right of ownership to the machines...Bought in good faith, paid market rate etc. (Hence my comment about allwins and the common man not knowing their true worth)

I once dealt with a case involving a new new motor vehicle where there were claims from two lawful owners. It took years to sort out and the court (Civil because there was never any criminal charge) awarded the car to the second owner. So it doesn't always follow.

In the modern world it is the insurance company, after paying the original owner out that takes the fall...

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Re: Stolen Machines

Postby coin-op » Sun Jan 31, 2010 8:04 pm

davethebirdman wrote:Sorry to hi-jack this post...
I don't think its a case of hi-jacking the post (although I'd have expected other's to chip in!); I think the position regarding ownership is higly relevant and I'm sure of interest to all.
davethebirdman wrote: The new purchaser of the goods now has a right of ownership to the machines...Bought in good faith, paid market rate etc. (Hence my comment about allwins and the common man not knowing their true worth)

I once dealt with a case involving a new new motor vehicle where there were claims from two lawful owners. It took years to sort out and the court (Civil because there was never any criminal charge) awarded the car to the second owner. So it doesn't always follow.

In the modern world it is the insurance company, after paying the original owner out that takes the fall...
I have to say I don't really agree with some of what you say. although I'm sure much can turn on what evidence there is in a case I don't see that generally an innocent buyer can legitimately claim ownership. Also, even though the case you refer to may have ended up the way you say, not knowing the fact's, all I can say is that there seems to be often cases reported of innocent motorists having cars claimed back because they were originally stolen somewhere along the line (in fact, on BBC news this evening there was a report about an owner having her car repossessed because, even though she acted dilligently, the car she had bought had been previously stolen).

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Re: Stolen Machines

Postby davethebirdman » Sun Jan 31, 2010 8:14 pm

I'm not sure I can add much more than I already have...

Apart from the fact, as you mention, that each case is taken on its own merit and that English law is never black and white..
There are plenty of people that make a fortune out of exploiting the grey area..

Ultimately the decison can and often does fall to the court to make...

And at that I shall "rest my case."

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Re: Stolen Machines

Postby operator bell » Mon Feb 01, 2010 6:53 am

I'm not a lawyer, but I believe in common law you can't pass on a better title to a good than you have yourself. So if you nicked it and sell it on, even if the buyer is unaware, since you didn't own title to it, neither does he, and the original owner can claim it back if he can prove title. No doubt that would involve court action if the new owner puts up any resistance.

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Re: Stolen Machines

Postby arrgee » Mon Feb 01, 2010 11:39 am

An interesting series of comments, and if it keeps my machines to the fore in collectors minds then it can only be to the good.

There is good and bad in every community and if the perpetrator is from our own collecting community then lets make it more difficult for any onward transmission of these machines to legitimate collectors by publicising these machines on Forums such as this.

The Grabber

Re: Stolen Machines

Postby The Grabber » Mon Feb 01, 2010 7:06 pm

If I'm selling a machine and I don't know the buyer, I have it in the hallway ready for them to pick up. If I don't trust them, I say, "that's the last one I have all the others have been sold". Also, when moving machines in and out of the house, I always cover them. Even if it's a black bin bag for a bandit, there's always someone who wants to stop and talk about machines. They may be OK, but who will they tell? Not everyone is honest.

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Re: Stolen Machines

Postby arrgee » Tue Feb 02, 2010 3:36 pm

All very wise precautions, but how many of your friends and family know that you collect machines and how many of them speak about it 'down the pub' or elsewhere, where other less than desirable wagging ears can listen in?

Not many of us want to live secret lives and I wouldn't want to - all we can do is protect our premises or wherever machines are kept, to the best of our ability - or pockets.

Malcymal : )

Re: Stolen Machines

Postby Malcymal : ) » Fri Feb 05, 2010 11:17 am

I hadn't seen this thread until now. Must have been soul destroying to have a collection stolen. They will more than likely turn up on ebay at some point in time and I shall keep an eye out for them and PM the original poster. I suggest that if any of you are suspicious of machines turning up on ebay that look like the machines in the photos - don't post up on here, so not to give the game away.

As a member of the local constabulary and following burglary of specialist items such as antiques (and commonly outboard engines) there are certain things that I do. Do an advanced search on ebay using a postcode to where the item was stolen from; we have come up trumps with this many times. Literally one theft of a trailer and dinghy were found four miles from the original theft. Old bill rings seller "Can I view the boat?" Go around, look over it. Get owner to drive past, yep, that's my boat... you're nicked.

I have also had some good nicks going around the car boots immediately after the burglaries. Amazing how many car-booters pack up when uniformed officers go around boot fairs. I would suggest that with vintage machines, if you were a professional crook, then these items would be seen as too hot to handle; too easily identifiable. Let's keep our eyes peeled and hope they turn up.

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Re: Stolen Machines

Postby cheeky » Sat Feb 06, 2010 6:15 pm

davethebirdman wrote:Why do you think it strange that a opportunist thief would steal coin operated equipment?
In my experience a thief will take what they can get away with...
Exactly, and an opportunist thief usually travels around in a van to collect their 'winnngs'! I don't think so and if this was an opportunist thief, then I would eat Jerry's hat! :twisted:
But, leaving aside the practicalities of proving ownership, if this is done then the owner is generally entitled to have the goods back as there's the old saying that a buyer cannot get a better title than the seller holds.
This now tends to be the norm. The position of ownership has changed over the past few years. So let's now just try and find those machines and let the Police do the rest. :cool:[/color]


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