Stolen machines - British collection

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JC
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Stolen machines - British collection

Post by JC »

Back in Issue 35 (May 2009), I reported a number of stolen machines, which were taken among other personal items in a house burglary. The owner (Richard Goddard) and I felt it would be useful to have details of those machines recorded 'in print', and it now seems appropriate to post details online. For those who did not have the opportunity to read the original article, here it is. I shall also post colour pictures shortly.
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Stolen Machines 1.jpg
Stolen Machines 2.jpg
Stolen Machines 3.jpg
Stolen Machines 4.jpg
Stolen Machines 5.jpg
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JC
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Re: Stolen Machines - British collection

Post by JC »

Here are the colour pictures of Richard's stolen machines, including some that were not published in the original article.
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Bryans Gapwin Ser. No. 2629
Bryans Gapwin Ser. No. 2629
Bryans 10 cup Ser. No. 4208
Bryans 10 cup Ser. No. 4208
Saxony allwin
Saxony allwin
Saxony allwin mechanism
Saxony allwin mechanism
Clown Catcher
Clown Catcher
Clown Catcher mechanism
Clown Catcher mechanism
Clown Catcher case markings
Clown Catcher case markings
Win a Polo Fruit allwin
Win a Polo Fruit allwin
Win a Polo Fruit backflash detail
Win a Polo Fruit backflash detail
Win a Polo Fruit mechanism
Win a Polo Fruit mechanism
cheeky
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Re: Stolen Machines

Post by cheeky »

Hello fellow slotties,

Have the villains responsible for this theft been captured yet?

Now someone out there must know what has happened to these machines. The collectors' community is so small that I am sure we can find out where they are.

What do you think? :idea:
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arrgee
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Re: Stolen Machines

Post by arrgee »

Hi Cheeky, absolutely no sign of my machines. :-x

The police initially thought that they would cause a 'buzz' with the local 'bad boys' and that they would get to hear of their whereabouts, they didn't, not one whisper.

I decided it was time to move on months ago and so I am now re-engaging with this fascinating hobby.
cheeky
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Re: Stolen Machines

Post by cheeky »

I would suggest they were definitely stolen to order but they won't want all of them. One or more will turn up again at some point, Ebay being a favourite!

Got be one for " BBC TVs Crime Watch", as these machines are so rare and identifiable!
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Re: Stolen Machines

Post by ilovemyjukebox »

I may know nothing about allwins but I do know a thing or two about crime...

I would doubt very much that they were stolen to order. Unless you have some very dubious friends.

My guess would be that they will eventually appear either at a boot sale or perhaps on Ebay.

Even when they appear I'm afraid it will be very difficult to prove that the current owner has not bought them in good faith and is disposing of them as is his want.

Dave.
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Re: Stolen Machines

Post by coin-op »

ilovemyjukebox wrote:it will be very difficult to prove that the current owner
has not bought them in good faith and is disposing of them as is his want.

Dave
If the original owner can correctly identify them as his machines and shows that he has reported them missing surely that must count for something. Also, the person in possession will have no evidence that he ever paid for them (and maybe no likelihood of ever having had the cash to do so). I know these thins can come down to evidence, but it seems a bit bleak to say that the owner is at such a disadvantage :eek:
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Re: Stolen Machines

Post by ilovemyjukebox »

I'm afraid that for a lot of the time the real (or first) owner is at a disatvantage even if he can prove that he owned the item
and that it was taken without his consent.

What needs to be proved is that the new owner knew or believed the goods to be stolen.That's not easy when
the new owner says he bought the item at a boot fair and paid £200.

With allwins its even more difficult because the avergae man on the Clapham Omlibus would have on idea what an allwin
would be worth.

I feel like the grim reaper .... Sorry
cheeky
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Re: Stolen Machines

Post by cheeky »

An opportunist nicking a load of vintage slot machines. I don't think so!
As for the defence, it will be an interesting one. I suspect that with wide enough publicity, the perpetrators will be found and, "I paid £200" for this down the market won't wash either.

Let's at least start recovering some of those machines and let the courts decide on ownership.

Anyway, drop an email to BBC and wait for the call! :roll:
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Re: Stolen Machines

Post by ilovemyjukebox »

Why do you think it strange that a opportunist thief would steal coin operated equipment?
In my experience a thief will take what they can get away with...

Defences to the offence of handling stolen goods are readily available to look at on the internet so I won't
bore you with replicating them here. I would think that the culprit (or innocent purchaser) would have a very real
chance of getting away with the I bought it down the market for £200 defence.If it ever got to court because
the CPS would be unlikely to run with the charge in the first instance.
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Re: Stolen Machines

Post by coin-op »

ilovemyjukebox wrote:What needs to be proved is that the new owner knew or believed the goods to be stolen.
I can see that this needs to be proved in order to prosecute (ultimately leading to a conviction and a few hours community service) :mad: But, leaving aside the practicalities of proving ownership, if this is done then the owner is generally entitled to have the goods back as there's the old saying that a buyer cannot get a better title than the seller holds. So I'd guess that stolen goods generally remain that.
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Re: Stolen Machines

Post by ilovemyjukebox »

Sorry to hi-jack this post...

Stolen goods remain stolen and anything gained as a result of those stolen goods also become stolen until they are passed into lawful custody.

So, the machines are stolen... The money the thief realises from the theft is also stolen. The handler you buys the goods knowing they are stolen also commits an offence and the machines remain stolen. If he then sells those goods to another and the other is unaware that they are no longer stolen. The money from the first transcation etc is still stolen.

The new purchaser of the goods now has a right of ownership to the machines...Bought in good faith, paid market rate etc. (Hence my comment about allwins and the common man not knowing their true worth)

I once dealt with a case involving a new new motor vehicle where there were claims from two lawful owners. It took years to sort out and the court (Civil because there was never any criminal charge) awarded the car to the second owner. So it doesn't always follow.

In the modern world it is the insurance company, after paying the original owner out that takes the fall...
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Re: Stolen Machines

Post by coin-op »

ilovemyjukebox wrote:Sorry to hi-jack this post...
I don't think its a case of hi-jacking the post (although I'd have expected other's to chip in!); I think the position regarding ownership is higly relevant and I'm sure of interest to all.
ilovemyjukebox wrote: The new purchaser of the goods now has a right of ownership to the machines...Bought in good faith, paid market rate etc. (Hence my comment about allwins and the common man not knowing their true worth)

I once dealt with a case involving a new new motor vehicle where there were claims from two lawful owners. It took years to sort out and the court (Civil because there was never any criminal charge) awarded the car to the second owner. So it doesn't always follow.

In the modern world it is the insurance company, after paying the original owner out that takes the fall...
I have to say I don't really agree with some of what you say. although I'm sure much can turn on what evidence there is in a case I don't see that generally an innocent buyer can legitimately claim ownership. Also, even though the case you refer to may have ended up the way you say, not knowing the fact's, all I can say is that there seems to be often cases reported of innocent motorists having cars claimed back because they were originally stolen somewhere along the line (in fact, on BBC news this evening there was a report about an owner having her car repossessed because, even though she acted diligently, the car she had bought had been previously stolen).
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Re: Stolen Machines

Post by ilovemyjukebox »

I'm not sure I can add much more than I already have...

Apart from the fact, as you mention, that each case is taken on its own merit and that English law is never black and white..
There are plenty of people that make a fortune out of exploiting the grey area..

Ultimately the decison can and often does fall to the court to make...

And at that I shall "rest my case."
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Re: Stolen Machines

Post by operator bell »

I'm not a lawyer, but I believe in common law you can't pass on a better title to a good than you have yourself. So if you nicked it and sell it on, even if the buyer is unaware, since you didn't own title to it, neither does he, and the original owner can claim it back if he can prove title. No doubt that would involve court action if the new owner puts up any resistance.
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arrgee
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Re: Stolen Machines

Post by arrgee »

An interesting series of comments, and if it keeps my machines to the fore in collectors minds then it can only be to the good.

There is good and bad in every community and if the perpetrator is from our own collecting community then lets make it more difficult for any onward transmission of these machines to legitimate collectors by publicising these machines on Forums such as this.
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Re: Stolen Machines

Post by The Grabber »

If I'm selling a machine and I don't know the buyer, I have it in the hallway ready for them to pick up. If I don't trust them, I say, "that's the last one I have all the others have been sold". Also, when moving machines in and out of the house, I always cover them. Even if it's a black bin bag for a bandit, there's always someone who wants to stop and talk about machines. They may be OK, but who will they tell? Not everyone is honest.
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arrgee
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Re: Stolen Machines

Post by arrgee »

All very wise precautions, but how many of your friends and family know that you collect machines and how many of them speak about it 'down the pub' or elsewhere, where other less than desirable wagging ears can listen in?

Not many of us want to live secret lives and I wouldn't want to - all we can do is protect our premises or wherever machines are kept, to the best of our ability - or pockets.
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Re: Stolen Machines

Post by Malcymal : ) »

I hadn't seen this thread until now. Must have been soul destroying to have a collection stolen. They will more than likely turn up on ebay at some point in time and I shall keep an eye out for them and PM the original poster. I suggest that if any of you are suspicious of machines turning up on ebay that look like the machines in the photos - don't post up on here, so not to give the game away.

As a member of the local constabulary and following burglary of specialist items such as antiques (and commonly outboard engines) there are certain things that I do. Do an advanced search on ebay using a postcode to where the item was stolen from; we have come up trumps with this many times. Literally one theft of a trailer and dinghy were found four miles from the original theft. Old bill rings seller "Can I view the boat?" Go around, look over it. Get owner to drive past, yep, that's my boat... you're nicked.

I have also had some good nicks going around the car boots immediately after the burglaries. Amazing how many car-booters pack up when uniformed officers go around boot fairs. I would suggest that with vintage machines, if you were a professional crook, then these items would be seen as too hot to handle; too easily identifiable. Let's keep our eyes peeled and hope they turn up.
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Re: Stolen Machines

Post by cheeky »

ilovemyjukebox wrote:Why do you think it strange that a opportunist thief would steal coin operated equipment?
In my experience a thief will take what they can get away with...
Exactly, and an opportunist thief usually travels around in a van to collect their 'winnngs'! I don't think so and if this was an opportunist thief, then I would eat Jerry's hat! :twisted:
But, leaving aside the practicalities of proving ownership, if this is done then the owner is generally entitled to have the goods back as there's the old saying that a buyer cannot get a better title than the seller holds.
This now tends to be the norm. The position of ownership has changed over the past few years. So let's now just try and find those machines and let the Police do the rest. :cool:[/color]
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