New way of getting past Ebay rules

Discuss our on-site auctions and other slot machine auctions.
spintop
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Re: New way of getting past Ebay rules

Post by spintop »

Clean looking green Mills machine on auction, this ended unsold 3rd jan on ebay then put on gumtree. i see the Seller never got a bid.on ebay , its Back on with private bidding and the bids are flying in ?? , i myself have never been a fan of undercover ebay bidding as i think its open to all types of you know what and dont bid on that format of auction myself as its done for a reason and one reason only whatever anyone says ,ebay should ban it !PUZZLED!
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widget2k4
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Re: New way of getting past Ebay rules

Post by widget2k4 »

This was the one that was for sale on Gumtree a week ago.
aristomatic
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Re: New way of getting past Ebay rules

Post by aristomatic »

Yes indeed, this was one of a number of machines sold recently. One of the members on here is selling this on ebay, as well as the remaining parts of the Mills machine referred to in OP initial post. Another member purchased the other machines from original seller. I understand the previous poster's concerns about private auctions so bidders cannot see the bidding pattern as clearly as those not private, however, and this is in general terms, not linked to this particular machine, there are other factors to consider. Maybe the new seller is closer to those currently bidding than the initial seller was. Maybe better pictures. What was the original seller's working/non working description versus the current seller. Is the new seller more flexible on payment or delivery/collection than the original seller. Maybe those currently bidding, have bought off the current seller previously, so more happy to deal with him? Maybe they didn't see the original listing - away from PC or on holiday. Some bidders don't bid til someone else bids as the concerned item is priced too high (not exactly a scientific method). As a licence shown within the listing, maybe they are confident this will go to its scheduled end so it's worth bidding on, and of course in some private listings it will be being bid up by the seller just as some non private auctions are.

Referring back to the OP, I personally believe the Mills machine being parted out, was to a collector, a far far better purchase than the complete machine currently listed, even bearing in mind the condition it was in. Indeed, I was personally interested in the cabinet, castings and trim, however collection costs became prohibitive to the deal moving forward, and that's after trying to buy the unrestored (now newly parted out) Mills machine from the original seller.


GP
marktol
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Re: New way of getting past Ebay rules

Post by marktol »

Hi all,

As you know I'm selling the two machines mentioned. I have to say I'm a little disappointed at the perceived tone of some of the comments. I have been an active member of the forum for quite some time and have purchased and restored quite a few machines now with the help of many of you. In fact several of you have purchsed either the restored machines, bulks of parts I've had sent from America or parts from machines I've ended up using for spares - sometimes at a small profit, usually break even or often I've actually lost money but that's not what it's about. Part of what keeps me interested in the hobby is the great community of supportive and friendly people on here which I certainly wouldn't have had the fun I've had over the past few years without the support of.

I don't feel as though I should have to justify my actions, however I don't want there to be any kind of misunderstanding or animosity, so I wanted to clear the air so to speak.

I had been in email dialect with the seller of the two concerned machines on and off over more than a week. I wasn't really interested in the green machine as many of you will know I tend to only go for 6D machines. The restoration was something I was interested in, however the quality of the pictures was poor and it was clearly missing a number of difficult to get hold of parts which can also be quite pricey. The seller was local to me and didn't want to be involved with couriers etc., so we eventually came to a deal to collect. I was just lucky in that instance that I was the most convenient seller for the machines he needed a quick sale for. You win some you lose some - more often than not in my experience you lose!

I had every intention of restoring the project machine, however on arrival it was missing more bits and was in worse condition that I had expected - I'm sure we have all been there. Personal circumstances for me at the moment are I don't have a great deal of free time and certainly not enough to do a full job on the machine any time soon. I don't have the space or ability to leave the cash tied up in something like that to save for a rainy day so went for the quickest and easiest sale route. It's much easier to package and send small items than big ones, and will of course also appeal to a wider market. For one broken down machine there will be many more that get a new lease of life. We all know that there's not really any such thing as an original machine these days as parts were always swopped out. The restoration machine is no exception and has had all manner of changes made to it which actually meant it would never really have made a great machine as is without a load of extra bits.

Those of you I know better will know I'm an honest and genuine person and integrity is very important to me. The listing for the green machine is private because some people like to have expensive purchases kept anonymous. I would normally list in the market here also and always at a reduced price to eBay, however I decided to go with a 99p start on this particular one - in truth I have no idea what a fair price would be. I have never pulled an active auction before completion with bids on, nor would I ever do that. I have also always been prepared to do deals with fellow forum members outside of eBay on parts I have available. Also, to be clear, I have never asked a seller to do that either; if there is a machine I'm interested in with no permit, like many of you, I provide my contact details.

Anyway I'm disappointed I feel as though I have to explain my actions - that's not what I've come to enjoy this community of people for.

Cheers,
Mark.
slotsoffun
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Re: New way of getting past Ebay rules

Post by slotsoffun »

Hear Hear Mark. But you didn't need to justify your actions. I've been in this hobby since 1979 and believe me not all people in this hobby are honest, so it's nice to see you as one of the honest. I've followed your posts on here so I know you are an avid hobbiest/collector who like me enjoys the buying, fixing, cleaning of machines. I do admire your ethics on being honest and not "pulling" an item from ebay before its end.

This is something that appears to be happening more and more. Sellers of vintage slots and allwins appear to be using ebay purely as an advertising medium and have no intention of keeping them on them til the end. We see a lot more of these sellers adding their phone numbers on the pretence of asking questions, but usually so they can do a deal! Early years of ebay no one put a phone number!
:D
jonesthegarage
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Re: New way of getting past Ebay rules

Post by jonesthegarage »

Well I can definitely confirm you won't get away with it by listing under "women's magazines", tried it yesterday and 16 hours later they pulled it and issued the usual dire warnings.
widget2k4
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Re: New way of getting past Ebay rules

Post by widget2k4 »

haha nice try mate :)
the things we do to try and sell :lol:
jonesthegarage
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Re: New way of getting past Ebay rules

Post by jonesthegarage »

strangely enough, there must be a time limit the violation stays on your account because I've just read the notice and it refers to it being my first listing breach, again, I think, implying this is an automated system.
widget2k4
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Re: New way of getting past Ebay rules

Post by widget2k4 »

i got mine kicked off loads of times and it always says first time ?
gumtree is just as bad now as well, they even kicked my advert off for a play station 3, saying i was violating the rules ?
they have some right Muppet's working for them who obviously do not read the listings before pulling them.
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badpenny
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Re: New way of getting past Ebay rules

Post by badpenny »

The word is out there that somebody is contacting the sellers of machines on eBay with a proposition.

They claim to have done a deal with eBay to sell other peoples slot machines on eBay. Stating they are fully licenced and will charge a % of final price.
They guarantee their auctions will stay on ebay for the full term.
My informant asks .... perhaps it's these that have been pulling them off ebay?

I can see a host of problems and reasons to doubt the detail of this, however I trust my source regarding the fact that somebody is trying it.
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coppinpr
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Re: New way of getting past Ebay rules

Post by coppinpr »

I agree with BP that this seems an unlikely ploy. What do you do?? trust the seller to give you the money after the sale?
They claim to have done a deal with eBay to sell other peoples slot machines on eBay. Stating they are fully licensed and will charge a % of final price.
this statement is clearly not possible and if the person involved can be identified they should be reported to Ebay. The truth is of course that if they are fully licensed they dont need Ebay's permission.
The licence is,as we all know, very expensive indeed and I cant see a licensed operator bothering to spend time adding this small sideline to his slot business.
I wonder what the % is? if the machine is an expensive one then a single machine licence would be cheaper for sure
My informant asks .... perhaps it's these that have been pulling them off ebay?
indeed it would seem likely that they are thus setting up the person they contact to be receptive to their offer

No, this sounds more like a con than a bona fida option to me
marktol
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Re: New way of getting past Ebay rules

Post by marktol »

Interesting.

I can tell you I have only had one person email me their contact details for the green machine I currently have listed - in fact that's the only email I've had about it period which is surprising considering there has already been a fair amount of bids placed and 135 watchers at current count.
aristomatic
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Re: New way of getting past Ebay rules

Post by aristomatic »

marktol wrote:I can tell you I have only had one person email me their contact details for the green machine I currently have listed

Probably because you show a licence so it's more likely to go to auction end and [ii] you have lots of listings and previous listings so you're unlikely to be swayed to sell off ebay, well at least with a below market offer and [iii] the price went up pretty quickly to a level above where an opportunist would want to pay, so again anyone hoping to get you to sell it cheaply would have not got it, so maybe no need to chase you with contact details etc.

I've not heard of the "I'll sell it for you for x%........... as I have a licence"......

GP.
polaris
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Re: New way of getting past Ebay rules

Post by polaris »

Sellers of vintage slots and allwins appear to be using ebay purely as an advertising medium and have no intention of keeping them on them til the end. We see a lot more of these sellers adding their phone numbers on the pretence of asking questions, but usually so they can do a deal! Early years of ebay no one put a phone number!
cant blame anyone for trying to sell by any means possible. think phone number maybe not required in the old days as listings left alone. i have in the past had listing removed and my account activity frozen albeit only for twenty four hours. what I plan to try in the next few days is list a perfectly good machine probably with a reserve as non functioning for parts thus I think complying with ebay rules. I may also list a phone number to allow contact to inform any interested parties of the actual condition of the machine. You listed a Fruit Machine. Gaming machine listings are only permitted from licensed sellers or if the machine is completely non-functioning and only being sold for parts. Disabling or removing the coin or payout mechanism does not render the machine non-functional per eBay?s policy. Please do not relist this. this is part of the message I received so am I right in thinking I may well get away with this?
jonesthegarage
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Re: New way of getting past Ebay rules

Post by jonesthegarage »

"non functioning" or "only for parts" do not get you around the rules,

the latest ideas I've seen are

1. Sell the case and the mech separately - obvious pitfalls to this unless they are listed as buy it now but it seems to work
2. describe it as "dummy", "film prop" etc, even though it is obviously fully functioning machine
3. describe as "full scale model"

The reality is that if it is a bot they run to pick certain words then your description needs to avoid the obvious words, bandit, slot etc, - this may explain why some machines have been removed even though they have individual licences. If it's actually a member of the Ebay staff who trawls for these things then they don't appear to be clever enough to see through 2. and 3. above

We all know it's unfortunate as it's undoubtedly the biggest market place out there but as previous posters have said both as a buyer and a seller you simply have to take your chances but until you've either got the machine or the money in your hands, then assume it's going to go wrong, that way you won't be disappointed.
aristomatic
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Re: New way of getting past Ebay rules

Post by aristomatic »

Well I don't think ebay existed when this machine was brought out. The seller states it was done to bypass state slot machine law and be therefore appraised as a pinball or skill with prizes machine and therefore legal to operate. Whilst the bagatelle type set up is interesting, I am more interested in the casting insert above the jackpot window with a melon window? Was this on other Jennings machines at the time? I don't recall seeing it on a non-bagatelle machine either.
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spintop
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Re: New way of getting past Ebay rules

Post by spintop »

I see same machines are back on ebay again both after selling, plenty of bids and I was one of them. Why did they not contact me after with a second chance offer? And they went for good prices, more than I thought they would. Come on, why not sell to the under bidders then? Oh hang on, it was an ebay private listing - "bidders' identities protected" - what a surprise. We know all about those sort of auctions don't we and the poor reasons, 'blah blah blah' why sellers use that style of auction and I guess you really can't sell the machine back to yourself can you? Basically it's open to all kinds of fraudulent behavior and should never be allowed, but if you want a machine bad enough you have to make this unfair choice to bid or not in that format. Enough said on the matter.
jonesthegarage
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Re: New way of getting past Ebay rules

Post by jonesthegarage »

just an update, if you don't already know this (I didn't)

about 6 weeks ago I listed a bandit and received the standard "listing policy violation" message but this time I noticed something I hadn't seen before - a one day suspension from making new listings

Took a chance and listed one yesterday and have received what appears at first glance to be the same message but this time accompanied by a 30 day suspension, so the system obviously awards progressively worse punishments.

On the other hand the Ebay owned company Gumtree doesn't seem to be removing listings at all at the moment.
raj
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Re: New way of getting past Ebay rules

Post by raj »

I guess you really can't sell the machine back to yourself can you
.
This is known as Shill bidding & is very common in open auctions where one or 2 people conspire to bid up the price in the hope that new money will come in, after which they withdraw. Ebay bids, whilst still possible if different people try the same thing, differs in that the machine knows if the seller himself tries this, using either a second ID , or the same one the ad is listed with. Retribution is swift and you will be suspended until a 'play nicely' CBT is completed and an agreement is signed off not to repeat. A number of people have been prosecuted for this, and the fines are very significant if found guilty.
If you suspect a scam, report the seller and the ebay police will do the rest, however they won't tell you the outcome.
As for Gumtree, they do remove listings periodically, but do not seem to actively monitor placings. They rely on trolls reporting people to achieve this & their threats seem to be fairly empty if you change the wording a little.
Doctored licences are appearing quite often now, however, this could be viewed very seriously by the Gambling Commision, should they chose, as it is a criminal offence to use a forged document in this way.
Happy selling......
aristomatic
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Re: New way of getting past Ebay rules

Post by aristomatic »

Just thought I would share some info....
Recently I sold some coinop stuff (modern, e.g. not vintage machines). This was an off ebay sale and he came and collected and paid cash. He told me he was currently banned off ebay and he had been reported to the Gambling Commission, for multiple gaming legislation violations. More interesting was all these violations related to modern pub club machines, for the continued listing of these machines on ebay under multiple ebay accounts, without necessary licence or permit............ I know some on here have previously believed only mechanicals and not modern slot sellers were having their listings removed..... I don't know in this case whether his listings were removed directly by ebay or after being reported to them by a third party. I am sure from what he said, that he was stupid and misguided and that sellers who list once or twice would merely get a ticking off from ebay and a day or a week or maybe a month ebay suspension. However, it may indeed be a different matter for anyone, who as previous posters on this thread have eluded to, either continually list machines without any legitimate permit of their own, or use another ebay seller's legitimate permit details or utilise any Photoshopped permit details, may have some more serious sanctions being imposed on them.

GP
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