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Re: Hi from new Allwin collector

Postby treefrog » Fri Nov 08, 2019 10:26 am

I would not worry about the legal side as you are using for personal use. Most comments will be about originality, so people like old penny.

You need new a coin entry, originals come up occasionally, but a repro is available from Retro Arcade, very similar to Olly Whales. The coin hopper has been sleeved and filled, so needs to be cleared out. Check the coin slide has not been changed. Also the coin chutes will have been modified for a narrower coin.

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Re: Hi from new Allwin collector

Postby moonriver » Fri Nov 08, 2019 10:09 pm

pauljt71 wrote:
Fri Nov 08, 2019 9:22 am
Is this for legal reasons or purely originality reasons? I would prefer original ones. I found a link on line to the licensing query and these are games of skill, so apparently don’t need a license now?
Allwins are not games of skill. The subject has been discussed at great length here before, if you care to search.

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Re: Hi from new Allwin collector

Postby pennymachines » Sat Nov 09, 2019 2:01 am

I assume Paul got his information from the website which hosts a PDF which starts thus:
The Gambling Commission website has recently updated its guidelines to help
identify machines requiring a Gaming Licence and those considered Skill With Prizes
and not requiring a licence. This is welcome news for collectors of Allwin machines
who have long wanted clarification. The following addresses the main points as
defined on their site.

It then goes on to elaborate. But this document is a bit of a mystery because it's not clear who wrote it (I found nothing illuminating about the website hosting the PDF), nor does it say when the supposed changes were made, and the Commission doesn't make any specific reference to allwins.

It's interesting though, because it's based upon an interpretation of the Commission's SWP definition (Skill With Prizes do not need a license or permit to be operated in public).

We have tended to pessimistically assume that allwins would currently be viewed as games of chance because section 6 of the Gambling Act 2005 says:
(2) In this Act “game of chance”—
(a) includes—
(i) a game that involves both an element of chance and an element
of skill,
(ii) a game that involves an element of chance that can be
eliminated by superlative skill...

However, there's a serious problem with the drafting of the Act above, because it tries to define "game of chance" using the expression "element of chance". That's to say, the concept of chance itself isn't actually defined, explained or analysed, and is assumed to be understood. This is unhelpful, because definitions of "chance", "luck" and "random" are slippery and debatable. We saw this in our long Allwins Skill discussion.

It's clear from the Act that demonstrating an allwin is a game of skill by consistently winning would count for nothing if there was still considered to be an element of chance. So instead of arguing that it is a game of skill, one would have to argue that it is not a game of chance. This would depend, not upon the existence of skill, but the definition of "chance".

As the Gambling Commission says, ultimately it is for the Courts to decide, but it seems unlikely they will ever be required to do so.

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Re: Hi from new Allwin collector

Postby pauljt71 » Sat Nov 09, 2019 9:27 am

Yes Pennymachines , it was the site you are referring to that I obtained the PDF.

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Re: Hi from new Allwin collector

Postby coppinpr » Sat Nov 09, 2019 9:33 am

treefrog wrote:
Fri Nov 08, 2019 10:26 am
I would not worry about the legal side as you are using for personal use.
Tom, I think this side issue cropped up because they might not be used for personal use:
pauljt71 wrote:
Thu Nov 07, 2019 10:20 pm
I intend putting the machines back into use as part of my vintage entertainment business offering a display of these as added attractions. After all, they were designed to be played.

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Re: Hi from new Allwin collector

Postby pauljt71 » Sat Nov 09, 2019 6:32 pm

I am collecting these privately but looking at the feasibility of having some for the public to play at events. This is the reason for asking about the legals etc. I really thought it would not be a problem after reading that site but I guess there will be more to it.

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