When you gotta go...

[pennymachines]

Right date..wrong emperor. Vespasian (Titus father) installed the first pay toilets in 74AD (Titus didn't become emperor till 79AD)

The source might, as you suggest, have been clearer to have called him Emperor Vespasian. In fact the original name of both father (Caesar Vespasianus Augustus) and son (Titus Vespasianus Augustus) was Titus Flavius Vespasianus. Confusing, eh?

But... the more I read about this historic pay-to-poo story, the crappier it looks.

We know Roman public toilets were un-cubicled (often open-air), side-by-side stone thrones set over a gutter, so we're not looking at any kind of coin-operated mechanical invention the like of which Heron of Alexandria might have come up with. In fact, the whole pay-to-pee story appears ill-founded, because it seems to stem from a urine tax imposed by Vespasian. This was the reintroduction of a levy originally imposed by Nero. Urine was a valuable commodity for tanning, wool processing, laundering (and tooth cleaning ), so it was those who took the piss (so to speak) who paid the tax, not those supplying it by using the facilities.

Pecunia non olet (money doesn't stink)

the first coin-operated pay toilets in the USA were installed by...Walt Disney, he opened the first studio-themed restaurant in California in the 1930's and installed coin-op toilets. Ronald Regan banned pay toilets in California in the 1970's when he was state governor

According to the source I quoted (and Wikipedia), "The first pay toilet in the United States was installed in 1910 in Terre Haute, Indiana. These first pay toilets cost a nickel." They were supplied by Indiana-based Nik-O-Lok Co., which was founded the same year. Reportedly, they also installed the vast majority of the locks for Walt Disney two decades later, and remain in business today.

Nik-O-Lok advert

Nik-O-Lok Co., Indianapolis, Indiana

Coin-operated toilets largely disappeared from America thanks to widespread activism of the Los Angeles Community Action Network, California Assembly member, March Kong Fong, and some high school students who founded the Committee To End Pay Toilets In America (campaign journal, Free Toilet Paper).

CEPTIA banner

Why don't we have pay toilets in America?

The first pay toilets in Britain were installed by Royal plumber, George Jennings, at the Great Exhibition which opened in 1851. They were christened "Monkey Closets", and you handed your penny to an attendant in exchange for, "a clean toilet seat, a towel, a comb and a shoe shine". These flushing loos continued to earn money in Hyde Park after the exhibition closed.

Toilet remains from ‘spend a penny’ exhibition uncovered in Hyde Park

A few years later, in 1854, [Jennings] opened the first underground toilets, just outside the Royal Exchange in the City of London. These toilets were notable for being the first to have an automatic machine (invented by the magician, John Nevil Maskelyne) which required that anyone using a cubicle would have to pop a single penny into the machine to open the door.

Spending a penny

[roger]

Note that you can deposit either a penny or nickel.
Single "poop" or week's supply.....
For The Collector Who Has Everything.

NOTE: Lenox Manufacturing Co. has a very interesting history dating prior to the Civil War. Perhaps some member will check this out and run with it.
ROGER

[pennymachines]

One of these sold for over $10,000 with commission in 2005.
Lenox Company ...founded in 1889 by Walter Scott Lenox as Lenox's Ceramic Art Company in Trenton, New Jersey (and still trading).

In the same year this dispenser was produced (1891) patent US459516 was filed by Seth Wheeler of New York for rolled, perforated, toilet paper. Presumably the Lenox dispenser was dependant upon this invention. The patent went viral in 2015 apparently, because it answers a much-debated question about which way round to mount your toilet roll.

[coppinpr]

The source might, as you suggest, have been clearer to have called him Emperor Vespasian.

in fact, the source could not have been any clearer it states "the emperor Titus installed the first pay toilets".... it was wrong, whatever Vespasian's name was originally he was never known as "the emperor Titus"
your very quick to correct me, which is good and not a problem, but don't twist it to make it look like I'm wrong when I'm not

[pennymachines]

Although Vespasian's full name after accession to emperor was Titus Flavius Caesar Vespasianus Augustus (as was his son's), the source referring to him as 'Emperor Titus' is not just unclear, but incorrect. Sorry, I should have said that.

The canard that 'money doesn't smell' comes from an exchange between father and son recounted by Suetonius in The Lives of the Caesars:

When Titus found fault with him for contriving a tax upon public conveniences, he held a piece of money from the first payment to his son's nose, asking whether its odour was offensive to him. When Titus said "No," he replied, "Yet it comes from urine".

Again, as this tax was on the sale of urine, it's not really a precursor of 'spending a penny'.

[roger]

Mr. "P" indicated that a Lenox TOILET coin-op (pictured) sold for $ 10,000 in 2005
and that's no B.S. (excuse the pun)
I believe that this pricey coin-op is connected to the Lenox Co. (pottery) and to the Gorham Manufacturing
Co. ( silverware)
How these two historic companies ended up making coin-op toilet paper dispensers is worthy of further investigation.
I will leave that to our history buffs to sort things out.

Note that the inscription on the dispenser is Lenox Co, Provodence R.I., 1891

REWARD..........First member to solve this mystery wins a McDonald's french fries.

[roger]

Mr. "P" posted that the Lenox coin-op dispenser was made by Lenox Ceramic Art Co. of Trenton, N.J.
I question why a ceramic company would cast an iron product. Also, the dispenser is inscribed Providence R.I.(not N.J).
There was a LENOX HOLDINGS which merged with Gorham Silver which was based in Providence. This may be
the link that ties everything together.
What makes this interesting is that two giant companies may be related to the Lenox coin-operated toilet-paper dispenser.

Apparently, my french fries were not enough of an incentive to get our history buffs to respond......accordingly, I have
added a coke to the original offer. ROGER

[roger]

Stingy Melbourne landlord installs a coin-operated flush-on toilet.
If he was my landlord, I would - - - - on his rug, leave a slug on the toilet, and walk out the door. ROGER

[coppinpr]

interesting that the coin-op only applies to the flush...might prove to be a false economy and a health hazard

[john t peterson]

Think you got the straight poop there, coppinpr.

J Peterson
In the outhouse, USA

[pennymachines]

Mr. "P" posted that the Lenox coin-op dispenser was made by Lenox Ceramic Art Co. of Trenton, N.J.
I question why a ceramic company would cast an iron product. Also, the dispenser is inscribed Providence R.I.(not N.J).
There was a LENOX HOLDINGS which merged with Gorham Silver which was based in Providence. This may be
the link that ties everything together.

The problem is, Rhode Island-based Gorham and New Jersey-based Lenox didn't become associated with each other until 1991.
I think you're correct to suspect Lenox Ceramic Art Co. is a red herring.
There was a Lenox Mfg. Co. of Catasauqua, Pennsylvania which patented a button hole attachment for sewing machines (US688998) in 1901.

The company name's the same, the date's close, and making both sewing machine gadgets and toilet paper dispensers is not implausible, but the Pennsylvanian address (about 200 miles west of New York) is wrong. Providence is about 180 miles in the other direction from New York.

Case unsolved...

[roger]

Current post,"Collector Connector Sales", started life with a discussion of Steve Hunt Auctions...Somehow, the post switched the focus to toilet paper.
Similarly, some time ago, there was an informative posting on "Essex Flat Racer". This post ended up with a discussion of Australian Flush Toilets.
This fixation on toilets and toilet paper reminds me of the time when public toilets were fitted with coin-operated doors and coin-operated toilet paper dispensers.

It was a difficult time for people without the proper change or those suffering from diarrhea.......

Please note this old post dating to JULY 2021.............
Based on recent events, perhaps we should return to "Toilets" and coin-operated toilet paper dispensers. ROGER