Sega Mad Money Restoration

General vintage slot machine related topics.
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coppinpr
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Re: Sega Mad Money Restoration

Post by coppinpr »

a good job well done and a good idea to get Tom involved as he really knows his stuff, Not sure I agree with your jackpot operation theory, it has always been my impression that the jackpot refill was never meant to be totally preferential and some coins were always meant to fall directly to the coin box. From the operator's point of view, this has a two-fold benefit 1. the jackpot tends to have fewer coins in it when it pays out and 2. the coin box has more so there is at least some revenue going into the coin box all the time. Some machines are mechanically made to actually do this, the BDR mechanism has a gate that only deflects one in 4 coins to the jackpot.
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Re: Sega Mad Money Restoration

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Cheers for the thoughts. I'm not sure, but it's interesting to ponder. I considered it both ways, but it was filling too slowly, for my liking. It could have even been less than 1 in 5, that was just my estimate. Those two turns, seemed to bring it to a much more even distribution, favouring the jackpot, but some still went into the house tray, so I thought it a better balance. Don't forget, I made that spring myself, so there's every chance I made it too weak. It's not entirely jackpot now, but considerably more preferred, until it's full.

I tried to put myself in the mind of an operator, and thought, if it were my machine, I would want that jackpot full, sooner rather than later, attracting even more players to my machine, which would have a beneficial effect on overall machine revenue, especially if they weren't all my machines. In my mind they're meant to be full, hence the principle of a reserve jackpot in the first place. If they didn't want that jackpot sitting there looking all pretty and enticing, they wouldn't even bother to fill it up again from a reserve, which I'm sure many machine designs don't have, but in this case they do, so it must have been the plan.

I bet a machine that pays the jackpot twice, because it's random, and can happen, that machine would sit there for an awfully long time without the enticing visible jackpot being refilled. I feel sure that they would really struggle to get it filled up again, and if I were an operator, I'd want almost every coin that came my way heading for the jackpot, until it was full. If I were a player, and saw two machines, one with an empty or partially filled jackpot, and one that was brim full, I know which one I would play. My thoughts would be, as perhaps any other player might be, they're both equally random, but that one can't pay out as much, if I get lucky, so I'll play the full one. :!?!:

If they wanted to pay less with the jackpot, the box and reserve would just be that bit smaller, by design. It will all have been calculated, and no doubt tested, and combined with reports from their clients and operatives in the field. I suspect that they learned that full machines do better, overall, despite losing more on any given jackpot, hence the principle of the reserve. During the design phase, if they discovered they paid out a little too much, I presumed they would be slightly redesigned to alter the overall percentages. On this basis I concluded that as long as it pays, on average, what it's designed to pay, by random chance, then the jackpot needs to be full to attract players. More players, more turnover, and more to average out your 22% share of the machine's throughput, or whatever the correct percentage is, for a given machine's set-up. I think I read that my reels are 78%, but I'm sure there are ways to perhaps ways tweak it, especially in the original design phase.

Just my thoughts, and I have no way to know how these things were actually designed, so I'm most likely wrong, but I decided on, fill quicker, more plays, and more revenue overall, so I went with speeding it up a little. Again, my spring was no doubt too weak, having been designed by me, from scratch, without having anything else to reference it to. I just made it strong enough to pull the flap back up, without considering how hard it needed to stay there, so it was super floppy. Dropping a single sixpence on it moved it nearly every time, unless it caught it just right.

Like I say, I don't know, I was just trying to use my best guess. I've studied little of the history of these machines, and no doubt there's an awful lot to them in terms of how these things are calculated and designed, but I did think about it quite a lot, to try and do it right. Hopefully I got it close to how it would have been, but I'm not sure of much, let alone this.
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Re: Sega Mad Money Restoration

Post by sutty »

I was just thinking about this even more, sorry. The quantity of coins required to top off the jackpot must be trivial, compared to the number of coins played to win a jackpot?

If I've got it right, it pays out 2 jackpots in 8000 plays, with 20 symbols per reel. Mine only does melons and bars, because they took out the stars, which I think, according to the original legend, also paid a jackpot, but on my machine, the numbers should look like this, having just counted.

I think the jackpot size can be reduced, if my understanding of part of the jackpot mechanism is correct, when I took it apart? There is a screw, and a spring steel flap, so you can screw it in or out, and the spring steel flap bends and always remains in contact with the back, keeping a smooth surface presented to the coins to ensure they slide out properly. It would be interesting to know if this is what this is for, if anyone can confirm, but that's what it looked like to me. This only just occurred to me, despite having seen it several months ago, when I took it apart, so I'd be keen to know if it's true.

Anyway, as it stands, having topped it right up, my jackpot, not counting the extra 18, which pays from the sliders, to make sure you win something, held 126 coins. Maybe it's meant to be 100, not sure, but maybe I could get it a little closer to that, if I screwed that screw in or out a little, if that's what it does? The reserve held 96, not much less, but not quite filling the jackpot, as I think is intended. Obviously it's somewhat variable, as the coins tend to tumble off in clumps, sometimes balancing, etc, but it gives a reasonable idea of what's going on. This means I was 30 coins short for the top off, for a jackpot that pays one in 4000 plays. This means, to top it off, represents only 30 out of 4000 plays, or 0.75% of the takings for a jackpot cycle.

If we talk about filling the whole jackpot, then that is significantly more, but still it would only be 5.6% of the machine take, and that's including filling the reserve too. 222 coins out of 4000. So even to fill the entire jackpot system represents only, roughly, 25% of your take home revenue, of 22% per cycle, on average. Yes, that's significant, but 30 coins to top it off, is not. I think the benefit to the operator of filling it quickly has to be considered important.

If there are more ways to win a jackpot, that I have missed, say 3 or 4, because I don't know these machines well enough, then, if 4, it's still only 1.5% of the throughput. All the other win methods make up the difference, and must be much more significant. I bet an empty jackpot would cost the operator more than 1.5% of his takings and it's worth filling it up quickly?
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Re: Sega Mad Money Restoration

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So many plays now it's getting silly, and things just work. I can't tell you how impressed I am with the way in which these old machines were designed and built. Properly made to last. How can it possibly work so well, after years of use, and then worse, years of no use, sitting on the garage floor, in the damp, for close to fifty years. I know you guys already know these things, but I think they are amazing.

The handle return dampener works too. During my restoration, I took it apart to examine how it worked, and saw a leather formed cup, with no grease. I put some in there, ran my finger around the inside to tease the cup open, just a little, reassembled it, adjusted the air vent for what I thought was a reasonable amount of force required for the handle to be sufficiently damped, and it just works.

I mean, a pump style plunger, with a tiny amount of attention, just works, after what, 60 or 70 years. Simply astonishing. I was watching the Repair Shop on TV the other day, and the outside guy was restoring some sort of pump, which had a leather cup. He showed how to make another one, which was very interesting. Leather of the right thickness, make a wooden template, and plunge formed it when hot and wet. Leave it for 24 hours, drill and refit.

If my plunger ever stops working, I now know how to make another. Also found an online tutorial for same, which showed basically the same process. Looks like you can buy them too, in all sorts of sizes, but it's fun to make things, when possible.

Very, very, impressive pieces of kit, which I'm sure you all know.

I'm very pleased to have found this forum, and thanks to all concerned for the help along the way.
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Re: Sega Mad Money Restoration

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Everything you say is interesting and valid, although I think you give the operator back in the day a little too much credit. Most could see no further than their pocket and would do all sorts of things to cut payouts and JP sizes which, as you say, actually put players off from playing certain machines. It was common practice for example to disconnect the reserve jackpot so jackpots in quick succession paid next to nothing. (the adjustment on the JP is as you say to reduce the number of coins). Welding up payout holes on the pay disc and adding loser patches to the reel strips was normal, let alone the more hidden options like cutting off sections of the star wheels so certain symbols could never come up. Over the years I've had about 5 machines that came to me with "bugs" placed to upset the balance of the reels or kick the reel one space more.

The makers did indeed try hard to find setups that would encourage players, but it didn't always work out. The Mills "Melon Bell" was a classic disaster. Mills spent a lot of time and money researching for this machine. They even brought in "a prominent psychologist" to find out what was a man's favourite colour to encourage players. It was the first machine to use a "Melon" symbol and had a massive jackpot, $10 (a lot of money in pre-war days). The machine was a total failure. Players and operators hated it. It was withdrawn within a year and converted into what we now call the "bursting cherry" with the JP removed. The "prominent psychologist" decided that violet was men's favourite colour, so he was a waste of time as well!! Only the melon symbol survived to become a standard symbol.
see the "Melon Bell" here https://www.penny-arcade.info/the-mills-collection

As far as your damper restoration, never use the word "grease" on this forum. Members like BP and Treefrog are getting older now and you risk giving them a heart attack. Never use grease anywhere in a machine. On the damper pump, the cylinder should be empty and the leather piston washer should be worked with a little Vasoline to get it pliable again. That's all it needs.

All these machines are indeed fantastic works of engineering. Apart from the obvious workmanship and quality build there are many hidden treasures. For example, there are several anti-cheat devices that are not obvious. Let's say you get a big winner and you have worked out (God knows how) a way to pull the handle with exactly the same force in an attempt to get the same result... Not possible. There is a small spacer in there with the central hole drilled a little off centre. This causes the clock to slightly change its power every time it's pulled. :dammit:
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Re: Sega Mad Money Restoration

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Really interesting stuff, cheers, thanks for taking the time. I shall follow that link and have a good read shortly. Cheating, is not really what I was referring to though, I was thinking of it more from a design perspective. Hell, I wouldn't put it past some, to block up the jackpots completely, and just glue a few coins to the back of the glass, so it always looked full, and never paid. If someone complained, every now and again, when it should pay, just fob them off, and give them the hundred coins or so they were expecting to send them on their way. Many would be too frightened to ask, if they looked mean enough, lol. It's not how they're designed to work though, and just because other people cheat, that's not how I want my machine set up. I did say, if I were an operator, not what some short sighted chap might do to theirs, but yes, still very interesting indeed to contemplate.

As for the grease, it's the only place there is some. It's what was in there before I got it, all dried up, so I cleaned it out, and put some new in, and teased out the cup a tad. I knew nothing of the correct way lubricate these things, when I was doing that, but I have since read in here not to grease anything for the light amount of play we do to them, in comparison to a service machine. I didn't realise it extended to the pump though, and I'd already done it, so I wasn't planning on re-visiting it.

In what sense is Vaseline any different to grease? Very much the same viscosity, to what I used, but, quite possibly, more harmful to the leather? It was a synthetic grease though. Can leather really be susceptible to grease, if it sat in a greased tube for 50 years, or more, and still didn't fall apart when I opened it up? Aren't all the other leather pump cups greased, from the old bicycle pump, to the garden sprayer, etc? That must surely have been the thing in the past? By the way, it isn't packed with grease, of course, it's lightly greased as you described, but not with Vaseline, that's all. If it were full of grease, it wouldn't move, or would come out everywhere, and in no time flat it would block up the vent hole, etc.

I'm not being awkward, I'm genuinely curious and asking, because if I've done something to compromise that cup, I will take it out of the machine again, clean it all off, and replace it with Vaseline, but right now it's working perfectly, and I'm not entirely clear what's wrong with having grease inside there. It's not like I can get it all over my hands, lol.

Seriously though, the last thing I want is to cause harm to any of the members, so if I'm out of order, I will correct it.

Thanks again for taking the time and the very interesting post.
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Re: Sega Mad Money Restoration

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That's a good read about the melon bell and the reasons it failed. Designers and companies make mistakes, but successful ones have more successes than failures. Sometimes they simply go down paths that they feel hard to back track on. Naysayers get talked down, because some senior guy thinks it's a good idea, or they are afraid to speak, for the same reason, even though many think it a flawed concept. Those days were not the same as an open type co-operative working environment, that we might see today, so things like that can happen. It could have been just one guy's idea.

If I grasped it correctly, them thinking that the jackpot having to be attendant paid was a feature, is amazing. Not sure why people wouldn't play it, but I can imagine why operators wouldn't want it, with $10 worth of jackpot sitting there, and then when won, you couldn't just collect it. If you had to call an attendant to go have it paid, and then manually refill it, what's the point of having $10 sitting there in the machine, all the time, doing nothing. Might as well just have the guy give you the ten bucks. I mean, why would you want to have to have your time taken up with dealing with that. Hey, I won the jackpot, oh, right, I'll get the manager. Sorry, can't find him, you'll have to come back. What the heck, I want my money. I'm not authorised, he's not here, I'll rip your head off, etc, etc, so the manger has to be there, all the time the machines can be played, unless they let every spotty little oik employed give out the $10, which isn't going to happen, it's a lot of money, as you pointed out, and as the article mentioned too. So he can't go to the toilet, nip out for a breath of air, have lunch, etc. Horrible idea, but someone thought it was a feature?

Someone should have spoken up, but didn't, and it happened, but one machine being a pig, doesn't mean they didn't get most of it right.

Great stuff. I'd been to that site before, but I was looking for info on my machine, and although I skim read a bunch of other stuff, I hadn't spotted that little gem, or at least read it in any detail. Nice one, thanks.
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Re: Sega Mad Money Restoration

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as to the grease your "skim reading" again, I never said to put any Vaseline in the tube,I said work some Vaseline into the leather to bring it back to life, (or you could simply replace it)you don't need anything in the tube or you will end up with oxidised grease just like you had when you got the machine and, as you say, the small amount of grease will block the vent hole and oxidise blocking the hole.
The idea of having the Melon Bell jackpot attendant paid and filled (there would always be an attendant with a long chain of keys around his neck (in the UK these always seemed to be called "Lenny")on duty in a room full of "Bell style" machines) was most likely considered a feature for the operator(with a spin-off for the player) as it gave the operator the option to leave the JP in place and pay the punter in notes. that way the machine always had a full JP and the punter was most likely going to change up the coins before he left anyway, from the punter's point of view the machine always looked worth playing, In reality, this was a disaster for the operator, as all JP wins, even if in quick succession were the full $10 (which was all the operators narrow view could see)
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Re: Sega Mad Money Restoration

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No, indeed not, I read that, and it is indeed very lightly greased as it stands, but if I were to redo it, with Vaseline, according to your instructions, that is exactly what I would be doing. I think all I did was wipe round the cup, with a fine film anyway.

Either way it's clear that it needs to be redone, so I will, and I'll work it into the cup with my fingers, to revitalise it.

Cheers

Sutty
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Re: Sega Mad Money Restoration

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coppinpr wrote: Wed Apr 13, 2022 6:43 am(or you could simply replace it)
As a matter of interest, I'd prefer not to replace it, but if I have to I will. I've tried hard to keep every single screw, the electrics, etc, original, where possible. Of course, it had to be rewired, unsafe, etc, but I used pretty much everything I could, that I already had. There were, of course, screws missing, where I had to buy replacements. I got the exact same types, after much searching, however I went with stainless steel, which I thought was a better bet, but it turns out I even feel bad about that, lol. And, they are a pain in the neck, because when you drop them, you can't pick them up with a magnetic screwdriver, lol.

Of course compromises had to be made. I had several springs missing, so I had to make replacements, so they are not original, and in the case of my main spring, it doesn't even look like a real one, because it isn't tapered at each end and I didn't have the tools or the skill to do that, but at least it works. Sometimes I get fixated, it must be OCD, and I have to use the right thing, other times not so.

I can't tell you how mortified I was when I thought I'd broken one of the chokes, through my own incompetence, whilst stripping the wires and pulling it off. I wrote about it earlier. My feeling was, survives in service for goodness knows how many years, then waits quietly for 50 years, and when I lay my hands on it I break it. :dammit: Thank goodness I was able to fix it.

If I do need to replace the cup, I will be making one, unless a genuine original can still be sourced. One might say, who cares, it's inside, can't be seen, buy one of almost identical spec, but then I'll know, and it will bug me, maybe. I never know which things will get me.

For example, other things, don't worry me, like the fact that my legends are replacements, on clear vinyl, but I had no choice, the others were almost destroyed, and the way I replaced them, as far as I knew, was the only option available to me, so a compromise had to be made, but I've still kept the originals, dreadful though they are.

Right, off to strip down my dampener, because I've done it wrong.

Thanks again.
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Re: Sega Mad Money Restoration

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Damn it, see, I never know what will get me next. I went to look at the plunger, but ended up reviewing what I had left over. Many were damaged screws, washers etc, that had been replaced, so were of no concern, but several items, I do not recall ever removing. They ended up in a bag marked, unknown miscellaneous, expecting that I would find them, at some point, as it all went back together, but these didn't get used. :dammit: No doubt I will now spend ages trying to work out where they should go, unless somebody can tell just by looking at them.

Can't tell you the thread size of the nuts, without checking, I will if it's needed, but I seem to have three nuts left over, which I have no recollection of ever removing. I haven't replaced these, because I never bought any nuts, and these are slightly bigger than most of the nuts and thread sizes used, for much of the case, so they must be needed.

The other item is two, slightly domed, chrome screws. A self tapper of sorts, perhaps. Maybe someone who is very familiar with these machines, can tell what these are at a glance, because otherwise, it will bug the heck out of me.

Missinga.jpg

Any ideas chaps?

Oh, and whilst I'm here, I meant to post my insides the other day, so here it is.
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Re: Sega Mad Money Restoration

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Ah, just pondering, because I can't just lay my hands on my original side panel bolts at the moment, but I bet those nuts are an odd few that should be in the bag with the original, rusty as hell, side panel bolts?

Still not thought of anything for the self tapper, ish, screws though.
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Re: Sega Mad Money Restoration

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All clean, and given a gentle massage with Vaseline, as recommended. The seal, not me. :lol:

Thanks for the heads up.
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Re: Sega Mad Money Restoration

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Got the door from treefrog today. Just needs a little touch up, a suitable lock, and all will be well.

Thanks very much for arranging it TF.

Fitted.jpg

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Re: Sega Mad Money Restoration

Post by badpenny »

Is it the photo, or is it really leaning forward like that? !PUZZLED!
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Re: Sega Mad Money Restoration

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lol, it's really leaning forward. I tipped the front into the well of the workbench, so the door would stay in place, without the lock, just to get a quick photo.
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Re: Sega Mad Money Restoration

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I've sandblasted my door, using a pressure washer and sand blaster attachment, which has worked adequately well, but I now have some areas where the surface is pitted, and I think too deep to sand them out, without overly thinning the metal. What method, or product, do you guys recommend to remove pitting, prior to repainting? Inside is much better, and will present no issue, plus of course it's inside anyway, but still, it's definitely good enough. Outside, I'm fairly sure I need to address the pitting, somehow?

And, whilst I'm at it, what is the correct finish for these doors. I have black gloss, and black hammer available. If black hammer was used, the pits would probably disappear, in the visual confusion of the actual finish, but I don't want to use it if it isn't the correct finish. Then again, if the correct finish is kind of unobtanium, then maybe it's the best alternative?

I be grateful if you'd let me know what your choices have been, in similar circumstances.

Thanks

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Re: Sega Mad Money Restoration

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The finish will be the same as you see on the inside. I have seen hammer, wrinkle and gloss finishes on Sega and Mills doors. You can fill with any car based filler products and sand back if needed
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Re: Sega Mad Money Restoration

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In the early 60s my Uncle would take delivery of Sega Bandits to his arcade in Paignton, at very strange times of the night from under a tarpaulin covering the back of a tipper truck.
The machines were painted in primer in order that the operator could paint them as they wished in their own colours (it was cheaper).
If he was part chopping out his current stock, he'd invariably retain the doors/locks and keys and just put them on the incoming machines. The new lockless doors being reassigned to the outgoing.

Those doors were bashed, tatty and painted by dipping a Badger's arse in whatever tin had a loose lid. It didn't matter, I was the only who saw the backs of the machines.

BP
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Re: Sega Mad Money Restoration

Post by sutty »

Thanks treefrog. Kind of a plain satin black, in my judgment. Certainly not full gloss, but perhaps that's the age of the paint? Not full matt either though, so maybe satin would be a good choice. Then again, if you've seen hammer black before now, that sounds okay to me, unless you or anyone thinks I shouldn't?

By the way, I tried a cheap moon lock, and the one I chose would not go far enough away from the back of the door, to 'reach' forward enough into the machine, for the lock bar to clear into the recessed edge in the hood. All the bar did was press on the edge of the hood above the door, stopping the lock turning completely to remove the key. Really, for the lock I chose, the lock needed to go up into the rectangular slot in the door, between the two screw holes, but it was too wide to pass through. !PUNISH!

In order to achieve this, I've had to cut the sides off the moon lock, and it now sits right up in the rectangle in the door, as opposed to behind it. I've made a rubber backed wooden spacer for behind it, to push it up into position, and using another piece of rubber, on top of it, I can clamp it down onto my spacer with the metal bracket. This allows me to squeeze it harder and harder, as required to make an interference fit between the lock bar and the back of the hood so that the door will be nice and tight.

I don't know how they should be fitted 'properly' but then again, I don't have a proper lock, so I have to make it work without adjusting the door or hood from original. For example, I could easily have filed the hood, but there was no way I was going to do that.

As for auto filler, I have some, so I'll give it a try. It did work well on the case, where the holes for the top light box had originally been filled, but badly.

Rubber spacers.jpg


Top plate.jpg


Complete.jpg


Lock in place.jpg

Great story badpenny, thanks for that. On that basis, I will go with hammer black, but I'm still going to try auto filler for the pitting, even though hammer is quite good at masking.
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